If two Lords Paramount married each other, what would happen to their respective "kingdoms"?

[Blugenes]

Wait a second, so if Edmure dies and his kid does not make it then Robert Arryn is heir to Riverrun from what I read here. Arryn is unlikely to make adulthood and his current heir is the proposed groom of Sansa Stark. If he marries Sansa Stark and "somehow" dies in the Vale with her still alive, and assuming Bran and Rickon are still thought dead, then whoever married her might control the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North by rights?

[CosimaistheHottest]

It is unlikely to happen. An unforeseen death or two have to occur at times for this. I also think Queen and Princess of Dorne is really different than 2 LP's getting married.

With the Queen for Arianne instead of just Princess of Dorne, she is essentially exchanging one title for a higher title. Doran can make the decision of whether to allow Arianne's future children to inherit the Iron Throne and Dorne or give it to a younger brother. He chose younger brother. Just like Robert could have technically kept Storm's End and Dragonstone to give to his children instead he gave it to his brothers.

This isn't the case for LP. In theory, they are equal. I could see, them having more than one child and one ruling over one kingdom and the other another.

If I was the male or female Lord Paramount, I would see it as a chance to have my bloodline dominate powerful ruling regions even if we don't share the same name.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

No, Catelyn is older than Lysa, so her children come before Lysa's in the Riverlands succession order. So I guess it is Bran, then Rickon, then Sansa, then Arya, THEN Sweetrobin.

All of whom are presumed dead or wanted for Kingslaying. SR is next in line by the eyes of Westeros

[CosimaistheHottest]

Wait a second, so if Edmure dies and his kid does not make it then Robert Arryn is heir to Riverrun from what I read here. Arryn is unlikely to make adulthood and his current heir is the proposed groom of Sansa Stark. If he marries Sansa Stark and "somehow" dies in the Vale with her still alive, and assuming Bran and Rickon are still thought dead, then whoever married her might control the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North by rights?

Actually, Sansa and Arya come before Robert Arryn for the Riverlands because Lysa is the younger sister.

[CosimaistheHottest]

All of whom are presumed dead or wanted for Kingslaying. SR is next in line by the eyes of Westeros

Technically Arya is even though we know that the known Arya is a fake. But people think she is alive so she comes before SR.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Technically Arya is even though we know that the known Arya is a fake. But people think she is alive so she comes before SR.

Doh, how did i forget (f)Arya? I supoose i just always think of her as Jeyne

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Technically Arya is even though we know that the known Arya is a fake. But people think she is alive so she comes before SR.

Doh, how did i forget (f)Arya? I supoose i just always think of her as Jeyne. However, unless i am mistaken Edmure is Lord of nothing right now no?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What others have said: One child would take over one kingdom and one would take over another. However, it seems like you don't see heirs marry each other, at least at the paramount level, for this reason. Brandon was the North's heir and would have married Catelyn, who was not the heir. Lyanna wasn't the heir, but Robert was. Jon Arryn was the lord, and Lysa wasn't the heir. I also get the impression that paramount-to-paramount marriages are or were actually pretty rare and that the Tully-Stark-Baratheon-Arryn bloc was a unique situation. It seems like most lords or ladies end up marrying either their own cousins or people from lesser houses in their regions.

[SanderOfTheFaith]

Arianna Martell becomes Arianne Stark, wife to said lord paramount. The oldest male heir of house Martel would then become Lord of Dorne

[CosimaistheHottest]

Arianna Martell becomes Arianne Stark, wife to said lord paramount. The oldest male heir of house Martel would then become Lord of Dorne

I don't know if she becomes Arianne Stark because she is very proud of being Arianne Martell. Women don't seem to change their names much here unless socially. Even Catelyn's names get switched up.

You also mean Prince of Dorne, Lord of Sunspear. The oldest child can become that whether a boy or girl. If it is a girl, she can become Princess of Dorne, and there next son gets Lord of Winterfell. This also works switched because Andal succession goes boys first. Then the next daughter becomes princes of dorne Or if they have two girls or two boys, one princess or prince of dorne the other lady or lord of winterfell.

[BryndenTullys#1fan]

Well when this happened during the middle ages, didn't it unite England and Scotland under one King? Maybe I just made that up, though.

I guess in Westeros the Crown would decide. Kind of like Robert naming Jaime LP of the Vale despite it belonging by birth to Sweet Robin.

So maybe the oldest son would get one land and a brother of the other spouse would take the other land.

[CosimaistheHottest]

Well when this happened during the middle ages, didn't it unite England and Scotland under one King? Maybe I just made that up, though.

I guess in Westeros the Crown would decide. Kind of like Robert naming Jaime LP of the Vale despite it belonging by birth to Sweet Robin.

So maybe the oldest son would get one land and a brother of the other spouse would take the other land.

This only occurs if there are no brothers. Brothers come before sisters except in Dorne. So the wife would have to be the only heir for it to occur.

[Sordelor]

Arianna Martell becomes Arianne Stark, wife to said lord paramount. The oldest male heir of house Martel would then become Lord of Dorne

Why the oldest male one (yes it is in this case, but it could have been different).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

In the real world, there have been traditional succession models in Europe. I know of mainly these:

Frankish: Every child will get an even part of the heirloom and if possible, a valuable lordship, the title of Lord paramount goes to the oldest child... or the oldest son, depending on the family rules.

Saxon: If there is enough wealth, everyone will get a fair share, or at least something. The bulk of the heirloom and the title will go to one of the children by choice of the current Lord. Usually the "fair share" gets paid out earlier and the decision who will inherit the rest when the Lord dies or retires.

Politically, usually the united lands get separated again. Except if the reign keeps being aligned on account of the new leaders acting with one mind and one word, they may eventually merge to a single entity. As it happened in England, France and (I am thinking of) Spain.

I think it differs from case to case, either a sibling takes one of the castles or there kids split the responibility. If Edmure died than Catelyn would have been heir, it this scenario I think Robb would take Winterfell and Bran takes Riverrun

Typical Frankish scenario. Rickon would get (maybe the Eyrie or) the Dreadfort or another important castle bereft of an heir that could bring peace to the land around it.

It's a very unlikely scenario...

That's the thing in Westeros. Before Lord Rickard started those southron ambitions, Lords Paramount offspring did not intermarry with the families of other Lords Paramount. The situation is rather new.

So you're not optimistic about LF's plans to wed Sansa Stark to Harry the Heir?

Would their child inherit the Eyrie or Winterfell? Its a tricky question. The first born son would likely want both for his first two sons, but his first son would want the same, so there is a major succession issue here.

I firmly believe Littlefinger has a very different plan for binding the Riverlands and the Vale to House Baelish then Sansa actually marrying Harry. He would not exhibit his plan to anyone, lest it be doomed. We know of Martin that any plan that's laid out in detail will definitely not happen. Surprise is certain, boring repetitions of what has already been told as a plan don't ever happen.

I also believe Littlefinger will have to be careful, for everybody around him including his new bodyguard have their own agenda, and basically no one is pro-Petyr. I keep my fingers crossed for him wearing plot armour.

[grand old duke of stark]

I don't see that happening on purpose, but it might happen accidentaly. For example, Lord Paramount of X marries a daughter of the Lord Paramount of Y, and then, because of a few unforeseen deaths, she ends up inheriting. In that case, I imagine they would divide the titles amongst their children. Or perhaps they would skip the female heir married to the Lord Paramount and give the title outright to the next heir that is not next in line to the other Lord Paramount title. This is unlikely to happen with a female heir to a Prince of Dorne, since they practice absolute primogeniture.

This reminds me of something else. What if Arianne marries (f)Aegon and he becomes King?

Since ASoIF is loosely based on the 15th century War of the Roses, it would probably follow English precedent. As a rule, the property of a queen marrying a king would revert to the king. So with the exception of Dorne, probably that would happen, which is why Catelyn and Robb were so worried about Sansa being married to a Lannister. In 15th century Spain, however, Isabella of Castille married Ferdinand of Aragon, and they ruled in their respective kingdoms. Their daughter Juana would have inherited both kingdoms, but she was mentally ill, so her son Carlos inherited. Still, even though effectively he was king of a united Spain, he actually had to be certified in both kingdoms. Eventually the crown was fully unified. Ironically, his son Philip II married Mary I of England and became 'co-monarch'. IN the event, he never came over and

co-ruled, but he certainly felt free to meddle after Mary died because her successor, Elizabeth I, kept England protestant.

[CosimaistheHottest]

Since ASoIF is loosely based on the 15th century War of the Roses, it would probably follow English precedent. As a rule, the property of a queen marrying a king would revert to the king. So with the exception of Dorne, probably that would happen, which is why Catelyn and Robb were so worried about Sansa being married to a Lannister. In 15th century Spain, however, Isabella of Castille married Ferdinand of Aragon, and they ruled in their respective kingdoms. Their daughter Juana would have inherited both kingdoms, but she was mentally ill, so her son Carlos inherited. Still, even though effectively he was king of a united Spain, he actually had to be certified in both kingdoms. Eventually the crown was fully unified. Ironically, his son Philip II married Mary I of England and became 'co-monarch'. IN the event, he never came over and

co-ruled, but he certainly felt free to meddle after Mary died because her successor, Elizabeth I, kept England protestant.

I thought this had more to do with the fact that Sansa is a hostage and if they were to die Sansa wouldn't be in control because she is a hostage/puppet. Also they make a point of saying that Sansa needs to get pregnant because any hold they have is tenous at best.

We don't even see a lot of ruling Ladies with husbands so we can't make a fair judgement of how it usually works in the rest of Westeros.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

This kind of stuff triggered the 100 years war between England and France: Philip of france had three sons and a daughter: The three sons reigned one after the other without leaving male heirs. The daughter married the king of england and their child claimed the throne. French nobles gave the crown to a french cousin of the three kings to avoide the war and shit happened.

Even more likely but still problematic was someone having lands sworn to two different liedge lords....Imagine someone inherits the crabb and Varaamar. He owes some levys to the Rock and some to RRun in case of war...pretty messy. For example imagine war of 5K never happened and that all Estermonts die and Shireen or Tommen/joff inherit the iland; they should be loyal to Renly for the Estermont iland, while paramount lords of DS or the Rock on their own.

This kind of stuff never happens in Martins world. Its strange.

[Maester Pedant]

Since ASoIF is loosely based on the 15th century War of the Roses, it would probably follow English precedent. As a rule, the property of a queen marrying a king would revert to the king. So with the exception of Dorne, probably that would happen, which is why Catelyn and Robb were so worried about Sansa being married to a Lannister. In 15th century Spain, however, Isabella of Castille married Ferdinand of Aragon, and they ruled in their respective kingdoms. Their daughter Juana would have inherited both kingdoms, but she was mentally ill, so her son Carlos inherited. Still, even though effectively he was king of a united Spain, he actually had to be certified in both kingdoms. Eventually the crown was fully unified. Ironically, his son Philip II married Mary I of England and became 'co-monarch'. IN the event, he never came over and

co-ruled, but he certainly felt free to meddle after Mary died because her successor, Elizabeth I, kept England protestant.

The difference is there is no evidence of Lords acquiring new titles through marriage. They seem to do everything to avoid a situation like that. So I don't see a personal union between 2 of the kindgoms being allowed to happen.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

So I don't see a personal union between 2 of the kindgoms being allowed to happen.

Who would allow or disallow such a union?

In a feudal society, it would be the lesser Lords all over the place going along with it or no, and the new multioverlord's capabilities to rule and administer the new structure. I do not remember all the instances, but it has happened before. The Sisters used to be a kingdom of their own, later disputed between the North and the Vale.

And there are a few other areas that were later integrated into a kingdom.

Most notably the Riverlands that were part of the Kingdom of the Iron Islands until Harren the black lost them, and they regained independance of sorts.

[Greymoon]

For example, Arianne becomes overlord/lady of Dorne, and marries the lord of say, Winterfell. What would their children inherit? Would the Starks gain dominion of Dorne? Would Dorne pass to Arriane's brother? Would one of her children rule Dorne, the other the North? If this is what would happen, then could a single family end up ruling every one of the Seven Kingdoms? Lots of questions, I know, but with the Sansa/Tyrion situation I got curious as to whether two kingdoms/fiefdoms in Westeros could merge through marriage.

It's not quite the same case, but Quentyn was meant to inherit Sunspear after Arianne became Visery's queen. Therefore, Arianne's children would be Visery's heir - they'd have no rights to Sunspear. It seems therefore that while Arianne is Doran's rightful heir, her birthright can (easily, as she fears) be passed over in favour of her brother(s). She could not be Queen of Westeros and rule Dorne at the same time - probably because of Dorne's status, and its desire for independence from Westeros.

If Arianna was to marry a lord paramount, I'd think that would depend on the respective titles involved - The question is easy to answer if Arianne had been married to a younger son like Benjen Stark. As the youngest brother, he stood to inherit little. Therefore, he'd have been "adopted" into the Martell house-hold.

I doubt he'd have given his name to Arianne. She'd have remained a Martell... I'm thinking about that vision of a pregnant woman in Bran's chapter - I haven't read dangerous women, thus I'm not sure if it’s been elaborated - but since the woman seems to be a Stark and the name was passed down the following generation, I don't think it's so unusual - if there is no male issue and when one status prevails over the other (Stark/lesser lords; Princess/son of lord paramount) - for women to keep their maiden names.

The Mormonts seems to do it - in Dorne it would be even more frequent. Therefore, you'd not have a Stark family up north and another down south - Arianne would remain a Martell but through her marrige to the younger Stark, the Martells would have a claim on Winterfell (after Ned and all his heirs died).

If Arianne'd been married to the heir of a lord Paramount - Edmure Tully for ex. as he is mentioned in her pov - IMO they'd have lived in Dorne, too. The Lord of Riverrun would bow to the Princess of Dorne. Edmure would probably have kept his title as heir/lord parmount however, as Hoster Tully had no other heirs (Cat and Lysa having been married already); but he'd be ruling alongside Arianne.

I supposed how/what their children inherit would depend on Arianne and Edmure – or Hoster Tully if another heir was named before Edmure inherited the title. I think it likely that the inheritance be divided up between two heirs. Perhaps there is a law, dictating such things. If their eldest child inherited Sunspear and the second Riverun; after the first generation, there would been two distinct branches of House Tully/Martell again: Those of Riverun, and those of Dorne; so yet again, you'd have two "independent" fiefdoms - unless the cousins married each other.

I'm not sure how it works in Dorne with the names; if daughters can inherit, it would seem logical that they would keep the name Martell. Do siblings in Westeros always have the same last name? I seem to recall instances in history where it wasn't the case. If the name Tully was attached to Riverrun, like Martell is attached to Sunspear - the heirs of either could have different names, no?

IMO it’s a different matter if one considers the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa. Tywin seems to consider that Tyrion would become the de facto Lord of Winterfell, I think. Their children are meant to inherit Winterfll therefore. As for Casterly Rock, I'm not sure how it comes into the picture; I woudnl't be too surprised if Tywin intended it to become another seat of the royal family. Dragonstone is such a dreaful place after all, and in Stannis's hands besides. Thus, how Casterly rock/Winterfell are passed down to the next generation would depend on Tywin – that is to say, on Tyrion's status. If Tywin has named another heir to Casterly Rock, Tyrion inherits nothing but what he has gained through his marriage with Sansa, and winterfell would then belong to a cadet branch of house Lannister - in concordance with the above speculation about names, If Sansa was Queen in the North, Tyrion would be no more than her consort; the Stark name would prevail.

Whatever the case, the King of Westeros would probably take measures to prevent any one family from slowly coming to posses most of his realm. Marrying too boldly might be taken as a direct challenge of the King’s authority – and provoke a reaction similar to that of Tywin Lannister towards the Reynes of Castamere.