The Ash, The Chestnut and the Oak: Jon's 3 lives?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Edit: woopsie, site was stuck on my end. :blushing:

[Jô Maltese]

Nice catch, OP!

:blush: Thanks!

[Jô Maltese]

I edited the OP to reflect some of your excellent inputs.

[Fire Eater]

3. The Oak symbolises Jon as the awakened Dragon (Targ) having crossed the bridge shown by Stannis. Wounded in the process (the stabbing) but also having re-opened old wounds (revenge for his 'old' family) or new ones (revenge for his discovered new family) he takes the King's road at last, furious and mighty (Jon the berserk).

The heart tree was a great oak . . . When dawn broke, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay.

Tyrion also takes shelter against the trunk of an oak tree when reading about dragons, and Jon comes up to him.

[Jô Maltese]

The heart tree was a great oak . . . When dawn broke, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay.

Tyrion also takes shelter against the trunk of an oak tree when reading about dragons, and Jon comes up to him.

Ash for Wolf (old life / world), Chestnut for Raven (death), Oak for Dragon (New life / world)? Yep, it makes sense.

[Fire Eater]

Ash for Wolf (old life / world), Chestnut for Raven (death), Oak for Dragon (New life / world)? Yep, it makes sense.

I think the ash goes with the story provided of Yggdrasil, the ash tree, containing the dragon, Níðhöggr, as Jon's wolf/ash identity is hiding a dragon. The dragon, Níðhöggr, is said to be freed from the ash tree at the time of Ragnorak just as the dragon is said to wake from stone, or AA will be reborn at the time of the Long Night 2.0. The dragon, Jon's true Targaryen identity, will be freed.

[Jô Maltese]

I think the ash goes with the story provided of Yggdrasil, the ash tree, containing the dragon, Níðhöggr, as Jon's wolf identity is hiding a dragon. The dragon, Níðhöggr, is said to be freed from the ash tree at the time of Ragnorak just as the dragon is said to woken from stone, or AA will be reborn at the time of the Long Night 2.0. The dragon, Jon's true Targaryen identity, will be freed.

I definitely need to read this story of Yggdrasil...

[Jô Maltese]

A recent thread about Jon's resurrection and some discussion that I provoked with 'my' trees theory led to new pertinent inputs.

Basically it went like this:

Me:

IMHO, Jon's resurrection is described in this very chapter: [Jon's visit to Mole Town]

(1) Is Jon as a Stark, a Northman, a First Men... like his mother. [Ash tree]

(2) Is Jon's visit to the underworld, his near death, and his return thanks to a raven (the clear parallel between BR and Ghost may imply the temporary warging) waking him up (similar to Bran's miracle). [Chestnut tree]

(3) Is Jon's rebirth as the true King, and pretty much pissed off like an angry and injured dragon... [Oak]

Fire Eater:

Jon will be undergoing apotheosis, which in a lot of myths is a visit to the underworld. He will get the boon there, the knowledge of his heritage that will eventually bring peace to the 7K.

An ash tree, Yggdrasil, in Norse mythology held a dragon in its roots, with one root feeding it that stood over Niflheim, the primordial world of ice and cold. A squirrel communicated between the dragon and a bird perched in the branches. During Ragnorak, the dragon would be freed. When the Long Night comes, a dragon will wake from stone with Bran (who was called a "squirrel" by Ned) working with BR, who is associated with ravens in the tree branches (his mother's sigil).

[Melissa Blackwood's sigil is "a flock of ravens on scarlet surrounding a dead weir wood upon a black escutcheon".]

The heart tree of the Red Keep, the royal capital for centuries, is an oak tree. King Arthur's Round Table was made from an oak tree, and the tree is a symbol of sovereignty and rulership.

A dragon waking is always described in terms of anger, and waking a dragon from stone would mean Jon would be angry after his waking: angry about Marsh's betrayal and the fallout at the Wall, angry at the truth of his heritage and possibly angry at Ned for not telling him.

Frey family reunion:

There are a few parallels between Yggdrasil and the Weirwood grove under which Bloodraven has his lair. The white roots that Bran first believes are white snakes call to mind the serpents that lay beneath Yggdrasil. Aren't the Children often referred to as squirrel people as well? And while Bloodraven could symbolize the ravens in the branches, he could also symbolize the dragon in the roots as well (especially since we are given the imagery of the roots actually growing into Bloodraven).

I have therefore updated the OP (again :) ).

[Ellfoy]

I really like the 3 trees theory representing 3 stages in Jon Snow's life. I agree that the ash represent the first Jon (aGoT - aSoS and the past maybe), the chestnut tree, present Jon (ADWD + coma Jon) and the Oak, future I'm-really-pissed-Jon. GRMM did say that we will get a darker Jon.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

This is fascinating OP!

I sometimes wonder how GRRM manages to fit all this symbolism in, but he does I guess.

I like it!

[Ellfoy]

I think I actually like bemused's interpretation the best :

Jo Maltese.. I like the three trees.. I think the hero's journey absolutely fits, but I think that more can be teased out of them regarding who Jon is and his personal evolution or path thus far - with promises of things to come , in the way GRRM's language makes it personal to Jon. ... So expanding on your analysis...

1) The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A

solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

... the Starks' true purpose and much about their nature has been twisted sideways (off-course) over centuries, and now it has a face again - Jon's. Jon is solemn, is of a "broken branch" of the Starks (female line) .. "two eyes carved deep" ... He's always been presented as observant ("You don't miss much, do you Jon ?") ... and he has , throughout the story, been focused on the north, CB and the Wall.

2) Growing.. beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow (...) The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, “Corn, corn, corn.”

... In the present, he is crossing (and creating) a bridge between the wildlings and those south of the wall. Though the tree looks skeletal , it's not dead, just in stasis (the sap will flow, it will put out leaves) Mormont's raven is there , and by extension Bran, Bloodraven and the CoTF (old gods).. and the "Corn King" motif is brought in.The Corn King has been buried (gestating) and Jon is the new shoot, if you will.

3) Just north of Mole’s Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that

marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the

weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

..The oak is huge, later, great ..and Jon may become a huge (great) figure. It's deep eyes (Again) are fixed upon the kingsroad ..what is coming from the south (Ramsay, Bolton / Lannister machinations and threats).. And I've come to think that last bolded section may well presage what will happen as a result of the assassination attempt... while Jon's wounds are still fresh, he will go into his angry , powerful, wolf-dragon mode, and "come roaring after" his opponents.

Edit: If I recall correctly, there is also an interpretation on the Jon Snow re-read thread.

[roxWolfox]

About Dunk, Chestnut was his horse and the tourney of THK was in Ashford.

Good gosh, I couldn't figure out why the 3 trees seemed so familiar in aDwD, but now that you've pointed at the Hedge Knight... well, I smiled. :cheers:

[Jô Maltese]

I think I actually like bemused's interpretation the best :

Yes, I liked it as well and thank you for posting it here on this thread (I should have done it but I did update the OP accordingly I think - it was posted on the "Jon's resurrection" thread I think). I have a problem with all the interpretations that stick to an existing myth though (here the Corn King), as I do not think it is GRRM approach. Yes, he is obviously a scholar in literature, history and religions and his writing is certainly inspired / influenced by his huge knowledge, but at the end of the day I am convinced he does not follow any consistency rule regarding this or that given myth.

I have not seen the Jon Snow re-read discussing this part - I do not think it had been done when I first posted this thread, but I will have a look at it.

[LmL]

<snip>

In-universe, the Storm Lord is the enemy of the Drowned God. I've suspected that if the Drowned God "exists", he's Not Nice. And certainly, none of the kings, neither Stannis nor any other, has any love now for the Ironborn. Plenty of signs of continuing conflict, with the odds against the Ironborn based on the omens.

Moqorro calls the Drowned God a demon, a thrall in service to the Great Other. That makes the Drowned God (element: sea or water) seem to line up with darkness and cold - Ice, which George has split off from water as its own element. And it is very cold and dark in the Drowned God’s watery halls. Ice and fire oppose, sea (water) and storm (air) oppose. Earth, in the center, is the balancer. That’s my hypothesis at least.

Storm frequently teams up with fire - they both are “light aspected,” they happen in the air, and you need air for fire. The Storm God is the one from whom the Grey King steals FIRE. Daenerys is Stormborn. I’m not trying to oversimplify, but these patterns seem to hold fairly often.

[LmL]

Yes, I liked it as well and thank you for posting it here on this thread (I should have done it but I did update the OP accordingly I think - it was posted on the "Jon's resurrection" thread I think). I have a problem with all the interpretations that stick to an existing myth though (here the Corn King), as I do not think it is GRRM approach. Yes, he is obviously a scholar in literature, history and religions and his writing is certainly inspired / influenced by his huge knowledge, but at the end of the day I am convinced he does not follow any consistency rule regarding this or that given myth.

I have not seen the Jon Snow re-read discussing this part - I do not think it had been done when I first posted this thread, but I will have a look at it.

(bold added by me)

He is pulling symbols and archetypes and basic plot elements (Freyja is super fertile, Walder Frey has a million offspring) from so many different things - norse myth, DC comics, War of the Roses, Mithraism and Gnosticism, even the legend of Lucifer, the Lightbringer - that inevitably he is not going to stick 100% to any given story. He’s not a plagiarizer, he’s participating in the great tradition of literature and storytyelling - using the classic archetypes and symbols in new ways, telling an old story but a new one as well.

Honestly, the more correlations I find to various non-ASOIAF things, the more in awe I stand of his ability to cram it all into a seamless tapestry that is so compelling and realistic (realistic from a character motivation standpoint). I mean, the depth of it all...

The first OP I have made on this forum in about a year was this one I did about the seeming lack of rationality (at times) about discussing mythology in regards to ASOIAF. Some people want to pretend nothing from outside ASOIAF is relevant, and some think he’s going to end the story EXACTLY like Ragnarok, or what have you. Sounds like there’s lots of rationality on this thread, but elsewhere...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/124865-lets-be-rational-about-mythology-please/#entry6736052

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/124865-lets-be-rational-about-mythology-please/#entry6736052

We are exactly on the same lines of thought: mythology is inspiration, not the guiding thread.

[Jô Maltese]

Ok, I checked the Jon Re-Read section that discusses the trees, here it is: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106564-jon-snow-reread-project-part-5-dwd/page-3

Some very good thoughts by some aSoIaF.westeros.org scholars (Lummel, Fire Eater, Ragnorak, Bemused, Lyanna Stark, Lamprey / Paper Waver/ Mithras Stoneborn) and I have to say I felt very honoured when I saw this very thread quoted as a starting point (thanks Fire Eater). :blushing:

[Ellfoy]

Yes, I liked it as well and thank you for posting it here on this thread (I should have done it but I did update the OP accordingly I think - it was posted on the "Jon's resurrection" thread I think). I have a problem with all the interpretations that stick to an existing myth though (here the Corn King), as I do not think it is GRRM approach. Yes, he is obviously a scholar in literature, history and religions and his writing is certainly inspired / influenced by his huge knowledge, but at the end of the day I am convinced he does not follow any consistency rule regarding this or that given myth.

I have not seen the Jon Snow re-read discussing this part - I do not think it had been done when I first posted this thread, but I will have a look at it.

Usually, I would agree with you but the idea of the "Corn King" is directly used in Jon's chapters (Mormont's raven) so I don't think it is going too far to use the myth of the Corn King as interpretation. Of course, I agree that we can't expect aSoIaF to follow exactly an existing myth, myths are just an inspiration IMO.