(Spoilers) Return of The Harp(y): evidence for legitmizied Jon and Queen Lyanna in the crypt

[sarah.jenice]

I think that whatever is in the crypt, it might mean something to Jon himself but probably not to the the realm itself.

I might be in the minority (I don't actually know), but I think Jon's parentage is only relevant for Jon himself (so he finally understand where he's coming from) and for the sake of the prophecies and the fight against what's coming from the North. I don't think Jon will want to claim anything and I do hope that if he is granted any form of power during this serie of books, it will not be because of any BS "claim" or because he belongs to a noble family. I like to think that ultimately, the westerosi won't follow a "little cloth animal" or a "family name", but that they will "follow the man", as the wildlings do. And for that, Jon being a Targ or a Stark doesn't matter at all.

I agree.

The logistics of Jon proving he is Rhaegar's son will be extremely difficult. If he wins the war and therefore wins the throne by conquest, he will already be the king and at that time can chose to stay a Stark or put forward the evidence of his parentage. I don't see Jon getting into the Game of Thrones and proclaiming his heritage and making a play for the IT not only doesn't seem like something Jon would do but also will only cause more problems/war for the realm at a time they need to unite. I think Jon will establish himself as the leader of Westeros as he is known - Ned Stark's bastard - and when everything is over, he will decide how to handle his identity. He might choose to stay a Stark.

[Mayura]

Oh I also wanted to add: actually, GRRM has stated more or less openly that Howland Reed was going to be the one to reveal Jon's parentage and R + L, basically.

So is Jon's dream really only showing him there is something linked to his parentage in the crypts? Or is it aso foreshadowing his death at the hands of the NW and the fact that he will return from the dead as he doesn't belong in the crypts yet?

Of course I think there has to be something in the crypts waiting for Jon from Lyanna (and/or Rhaegar). But it's possible the dream is not pointing towards that in particular at the moment.

However, if we consider that Jon's dream is telling him there is something he needs to discover in the crypts, my best guess would be a dragon egg. Because we have seen it with Daenerys, the dragons were calling her in her sleep and showing her the way. At least the presence of a dragon egg would be, imo, a more compelling evidence for Jon's identity as a Targaryen, even more so if he manages to hatch it.

[Winter's Knight]

I think all of the Starks are put to rest in the crypts, but its only the Kings/Lords that were given statues in their likeness.

Oh yeah, that could be it.

I've wondered the same thing. Other lower levels to the crypt are mentioned. Perhaps the women and even boys/men who were not the lord are buried on lower levels.

The levels are ordered by age, with the older ones below-although you'd think logically it'd be the other way around.

[Mourneblade]

There can be no other reason for the three White Cloaks to have died at the Tower of Joy than to have been protecting the Legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. These were honorable men doing their sworn duty. They would have been at Dragon Stone had Viserys been next in line

[fatcat32]

Oh yeah, that could be it.

The levels are ordered by age, with the older ones below-although you'd think logically it'd be the other way around.

.

Yea I believe it that in either Jons,Brans or maybe even Theons pov that its mentioned that the older kings of winter are in the lower levels.

[Daendrew]

George doesn't mention and repeat a fact, often word for word in 4 of 5 books if it didn't have a big role. The instrument of a dead man plays no tune, unless it is the song of ice as fire.

[Mayura]

There can be no other reason for the three White Cloaks to have died at the Tower of Joy than to have been protecting the Legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. These were honorable men doing their sworn duty. They would have been at Dragon Stone had Viserys been next in line

As far as we know from what Martin said (check the SSM), they were obeying Rhaegar's orders. They didn't choose to stay there, they obeyed the Prince. So technically, no, their presence doesn't prove Jon was the legitimate heir. (maybe he is, but the presence of the 3 KG doesn't prove that as such)

[littleRickon]

No reason to turn this into another R&L=J thread, the above objection has been addressed and, in my opinion, rebuked.

[Mourneblade]

No reason to turn this into another R&L=J thread, the above objection has been addressed and, in my opinion, rebuked.

The thread in question assumes that Jon is Legitimate, I am only reinforcing that, Rhaegar Dies long enough before the fight at the Tower of Joy for the White Cloaks to leave to Dragonstone. They would not have stayed following a dead man's order over their Sworn Duty to protect the King.

So with that said, there has to be something in the Crypts at Winterfell that corroborates this, and many other items of interest as we continue to have dreams and print discussing mysteries of the crypt in Winterfell.

[Mayura]

The thread in question assumes that Jon is Legitimate, I am only reinforcing that, Rhaegar Dies long enough before the fight at the Tower of Joy for the White Cloaks to leave to Dragonstone. They would not have stayed following a dead man's order over their Sworn Duty to protect the King.

So with that said, there has to be something in the Crypts at Winterfell that corroborates this, and many other items of interest as we continue to have dreams and print discussing mysteries of the crypt in Winterfell.

Again, the author has addressed this question and has replied that the knights of the KG were at the ToJ because they had to follow Rhaegar's orders. They were instructed to keep guard over Lyanna at the ToJ. (as to "why did Rhaegar give that order", it is pure speculation)

He has also said the KG knew what was in the tower indeed. But independently of what was in the TOJ, the reason of their presence there isn't, in itself, an evidence of the fact that the legitimate prince was in it. GRRM stated they had to obey Rhaegar. So technically, even if Jon is not the legitimate heir, they would have guarded Lyanna and Jon all the same. And even if Jon isn't the legitimate heir, he remained the blood of Prince Rhaegar indeed.

So continuing on the specific topic of the object that is awaiting Jon in the crypts of Winterfell: I do believe there is indeed something linking him to Rhaegar and Lyanna. You proposed as an other poster did, the silver stringed harp, which is a brilliant catch! But it still wouln't "prove" anything, whichever artifact is in the crypts, it would just, imo, be there to finally help Jon to know of his true parentage and to link him with the prophecies.

So, basically, there are 99% chances there IS the harp or another object showing a link between R+L=J in the crypts. But what I am saying is that it doesn't necessarily mean Jon is the legitimate prince (and tbh, I don't think he would even care or he would even bother to make a claim at all. Jon has learned a name doesn't make the man).

So far, Jon being legitimate Targ or not is anyone's guess. We can speculate and make theories but the fact is there is no conclusive evidence so far (even the KG thing is, at best, indirect evidence that Rhaegar has maybe given this order because he chose Jon as his heir. But all we know for a fact is that the KG were there because of Rhaegar's orders, not because they decided they'd stay on their own. Of course, it's a good guess that they were supposed to protect Lyanna and especially Jon against Robert's partisans)

[Lummel]

I don't know that there has to be an object in the crypts that proves or determines something about Jon's heritage. The dreams could be purely symbolic. Who is in the crypts? The people Jon thinks are his ancestors. What do they say? This is not your place.

[Mayura]

I don't know that there has to be an object in the crypts that proves or determines something about Jon's heritage. The dreams could be purely symbolic. Who is in the crypts? The people Jon thinks are his ancestors. What do they say? This is not your place.

I would tend to agree with this comment too, the dream could purely be a foreshadowing of his near death and of the fact he isn't a Stark.

What also draws me towards believing there might actually be something in it, however, is that Lyanna insisted to be burried in the crypts of Winterfell, maybe with something.

[Mourneblade]

Mayura Of course the Kingsguard were there on orders, but they would not have Stayed there after Rhaegar's death if it was not their Sworn Duty. Also D&D was asked by martin who they thought was Jon's parents as a quiz and got it right...

That being said I think a Harp and a Targaryen Cloak and maybe a ledger with hopes and wishes from Rhaegar to his unborn son or a baby wooden dragon he carved I mean it could be anything lol. I think the Crypts in Winterfell hold a lot of items and secrets for not just Jon, but against the others as well.

[Ghost's Shadow]

However, if we consider that Jon's dream is telling him there is something he needs to discover in the crypts, my best guess would be a dragon egg. Because we have seen it with Daenerys, the dragons were calling her in her sleep and showing her the way. At least the presence of a dragon egg would be, imo, a more compelling evidence for Jon's identity as a Targaryen, even more so if he manages to hatch it.

I don't know that there has to be an object in the crypts that proves or determines something about Jon's heritage. The dreams could be purely symbolic. Who is in the crypts? The people Jon thinks are his ancestors. What do they say? This is not your place.

I don't think it's Jon himself they are saying that to, since he's either just Ned's bastard, which is really not that big a deal - Brandon Snow seemed to me to have been raised at Winterfell as well - or at best Jon is a legitimate heir of the female Stark line. No reason for Kings of Winter, people who probably had bastards as well, to scream at him, really.

Now, if there was an actual dragon in an egg in Lyanna's tomb, something that definitely does not belong there, then I can understand their behaviour. They have/are wolves, not dragons.

So maybe Summer did in fact see a dragon fly away when Winterfell burned. If I'd been screamed at for that long I wouldn't wish to stay around there, either. (Not too sure of that, though, since all he'd find were empty shells, still no boon.)

[Winter's Knight]

I don't know that there has to be an object in the crypts that proves or determines something about Jon's heritage. The dreams could be purely symbolic. Who is in the crypts? The people Jon thinks are his ancestors. What do they say? This is not your place.

Harrumph. They are still his ancestors, even if only from the mother's side.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'm curious: where are the women of WF buried? The Lady Starks and the unmarried daughters and the girls who died young?

I'm not sure if you're asking tongue in cheek or if someone answered, but I thought it was explicitly stated that the women are also buried in the crypts. It's just that the norm was for only first Kings and then Lords to get the statues. It's said that Ned's love for both his brother and his sister is what caused him to give them both statues.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm not sure if you're asking tongue in cheek or if someone answered, but I thought it was explicitly stated that the women are also buried in the crypts. It's just that the norm was for only first Kings and then Lords to get the statues. It's said that Ned's love for both his brother and his sister is what caused him to give them both statues.

I was just being dense, sorry.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Robert wasn't exactly known for his powers of attention or imagination. He managed to remain oblivious of the twincest and it's consequences after all.

IMO GRRM placed the harp there for attentive readers to pick up on, which the OP did.

I guess I am going to check my books to see if it is mentioned that there is a harp with Lyanna's statue? I've read the books entirely too many times, but I'm not sure if this is ringing a bell in my overcrowded memory cells.

[Lummel]

Harrumph. They are still his ancestors, even if only from the mother's side.

Apparently the patriarchy is also strong among ghosts. Sorry about that.

ETA personally I prefer a psychological reading rather than to assume sexist ghosts (if of course L+R=J) ie this is about Jon's subconscious or unconscious doubts about his parentage, but it is an open question.

[Ygrain]

Oh I also wanted to add: actually, GRRM has stated more or less openly that Howland Reed was going to be the one to reveal Jon's parentage and R + L, basically.

Has he? I recall him stating that HR is going to make an appearance but no more. Do you have a link?

George doesn't mention and repeat a fact, often word for word in 4 of 5 books if it didn't have a big role. The instrument of a dead man plays no tune, unless it is the song of ice as fire.

Beautifully said :-)

Again, the author has addressed this question and has replied that the knights of the KG were at the ToJ because they had to follow Rhaegar's orders. They were instructed to keep guard over Lyanna at the ToJ. (as to "why did Rhaegar give that order", it is pure speculation)

Actually, he didn't. The question he answered asked only why they stayed at ToJ, and he said that they followed Rhaegar's orders; the question why they still stayed when the supposed new king had no KG with him was never asked nor answered.

I guess I am going to check my books to see if it is mentioned that there is a harp with Lyanna's statue? I've read the books entirely too many times, but I'm not sure if this is ringing a bell in my overcrowded memory cells.

There's definitely not. Robert might have overlooked it but we have Bran's PoV as they visit the crypts and Arya's recollection, as well, and none of them ever mention any harp. Bran's PoV even focuses at Lyanna's statue as he tells Osha about her and she takes a close look and says that Lyanna was beautiful, but doesn't ask about any harp.