(Spoilers) Return of The Harp(y): evidence for legitmizied Jon and Queen Lyanna in the crypt

[briantw]

Again, the author has addressed this question and has replied that the knights of the KG were at the ToJ because they had to follow Rhaegar's orders. They were instructed to keep guard over Lyanna at the ToJ. (as to "why did Rhaegar give that order", it is pure speculation)

See, that made sense when Rhaegar was still alive, but why would they fight Ned and his men to protect Lyanna when Ned would have had no intention of hurting her? With Rhaegar dead, there wasn't much point in protecting her any more, as he wasn't going to be coming back for her any time soon. Unless they intended to hold her captive in the Tower of Joy for all eternity, it seems like their best course of action would have been to hand her over to Ned non-violently, or just disappear before he got there.

The only reason for them to stay there and fight was to protect something else that might actually be in danger.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I was just being dense, sorry.

That's okay, I'm just slowly reading and catching up on the whole thread, and thought I'd try and be helpful.

I always took it that it seemed the girls were in the area of the crypts that corresponded to their generational family, just without statues. One thing that is a little strange about it, even without statues of the women, you'd think we'd hear something about their names carved on their respective resting spots?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Beautifully said :-)

There's definitely not. Robert might have overlooked it but we have Bran's PoV as they visit the crypts and Arya's recollection, as well, and none of them ever mention any harp. Bran's PoV even focuses at Lyanna's statue as he tells Osha about her and she takes a close look and says that Lyanna was beautiful, but doesn't ask about any harp.

That phrase is beautifully said.

And, thank you. I was starting to wonder if I was misreading the words or wrong about the intent in regards to the harp being part of the statue. Yeah, that would not go over well with Robert, not to mention........just for all those at Winterfell, it would be considered questionable, I would think.

[HMR]

The KG were at the Tower of Joy protecting their rightful king - Jon Targaryen.

Interesting theory about the harp, but I hope Martin does not go into song magic like Battleaxe books. I always thought that "the song of ice and fire" if more of a metaphorical thing. As such, I hope the harp was just an ordinary harp.

[Harzoo]

Oh I also wanted to add: actually, GRRM has stated more or less openly that Howland Reed was going to be the one to reveal Jon's parentage and R + L, basically.

Has he? I recall him stating that HR is going to make an appearance but no more. Do you have a link?

I too want to know of this information.

[Oneorobertsbastards]

I'm afraid I don't understand the significance of Jon possibly finding a harp in/on Lyanna's tomb, or even a wedding cloak. So this is the scenario imagined?:

Jon goes down to the crypts. Cruises the tombs, comes to Lyanna's. Sees a harp in/on it, and automatically thinks "holy shit! My aunt Lyanna has Rheagar's harp! I know they had something going on and all, since he abducted her and my dad and his buddy Bob rebelled because of it, but this harp....man, I bet that means more than just her and Rheagar bein' all cozy. I bet this means I'm the child nobody ever knew was born of a secret marriage! Surely this harp pertains to me, and this wedding cloak here means they were married, so I must be the king and heir!"

Sorry guys. Just don't buy it. Don't see him making the jump. It's already been established that Rheagar and Lyanna had a relationship. No mention of a child. Jon knows she's his aunt, and has a perfectly plausible reason to think he is nothing other than the son of Ned Stark. A harp would mean nothing to him regarding parentage.

Unless the dead reanimate and speak to him directly, there is no reason for him to come to that conclusion

[sleath56]

This theory is just speculation. No one has answered the question on how Robert would have possibly missed it when he went down into the crypts to pay respect.

He couldn't possibly have overlooked it considering seeing the statue was his entire goal of going down there for. IHe would have noticed a harp on the tomb, or with the statue.

Rhaegar was famously known for having a harp, and so Robert wouldn't have missed it as a decor.

[Lyse Stark]

This theory is just speculation. No one has answered the question on how Robert would have possibly missed it when he went down into the crypts to pay respect.

He couldn't possibly have overlooked it considering seeing the statue was his entire goal of going down there for. IHe would have noticed a harp on the tomb, or with the statue.

Rhaegar was famously known for having a harp, and so Robert wouldn't have missed it as a decor.

The harp is concealed by Lyanna's statue as the OP said.

[Daendrew]

I believe there will be several things there, documents legitimizing him, a will/letter, the harp, maybe dragon eggs. Hers is the only statue without a sword, so opening the crypt would not release angry spirits they fear.

That leads to another question of why Starks would fear their ancestors. Something unsavory in their history?

The stone statue crypt can wake the dragon in him from the message contained within.

[King Hodor IV]

Oh I also wanted to add: actually, GRRM has stated more or less openly that Howland Reed was going to be the one to reveal Jon's parentage and R + L, basically.

So is Jon's dream really only showing him there is something linked to his parentage in the crypts? Or is it aso foreshadowing his death at the hands of the NW and the fact that he will return from the dead as he doesn't belong in the crypts yet?

Of course I think there has to be something in the crypts waiting for Jon from Lyanna (and/or Rhaegar). But it's possible the dream is not pointing towards that in particular at the moment.

However, if we consider that Jon's dream is telling him there is something he needs to discover in the crypts, my best guess would be a dragon egg. Because we have seen it with Daenerys, the dragons were calling her in her sleep and showing her the way. At least the presence of a dragon egg would be, imo, a more compelling evidence for Jon's identity as a Targaryen, even more so if he manages to ha it.

george NEVER said that. if he had, this would not have been a theory for 17 years but instead a fact. people like you who pull random information out of a hat to try and win your own argument only ruins these discussions or at least adds nothing to them

[Ygrain]

I'm afraid I don't understand the significance of Jon possibly finding a harp in/on Lyanna's tomb, or even a wedding cloak. So this is the scenario imagined?:

Jon goes down to the crypts. Cruises the tombs, comes to Lyanna's. Sees a harp in/on it, and automatically thinks "holy shit! My aunt Lyanna has Rheagar's harp! I know they had something going on and all, since he abducted her and my dad and his buddy Bob rebelled because of it, but this harp....man, I bet that means more than just her and Rheagar bein' all cozy. I bet this means I'm the child nobody ever knew was born of a secret marriage! Surely this harp pertains to me, and this wedding cloak here means they were married, so I must be the king and heir!"

They rebelled because it was either that or lose their heads. Not sure if Jon is aware of this, true.

Sorry guys. Just don't buy it. Don't see him making the jump. It's already been established that Rheagar and Lyanna had a relationship. No mention of a child. Jon knows she's his aunt, and has a perfectly plausible reason to think he is nothing other than the son of Ned Stark. A harp would mean nothing to him regarding parentage.

It is not. Abduction and rape =/= relationship, so finding an object belonging to Rhaegar in Lyanna's tomb would be a source of a major WTF?! moment. Finding a Targaryen wedding cloak an even bigger one, and either would lead to an important realisation: Ned lied. He lied about what was between his sister and Rhaegar, and if he lied about this, he could have lied about other things, as well.

Besides, if Jon learns that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, he is intelligent enough to realize that this is something that Ned couldn't tell. Something he had to kept secret the whole time, like the name of Jon's mother. - Which raises again the question why Ned never told Jon his mother's name and provides enough ground for a previously unconsidered direction that Ned couldn't tell him. Enough grounds to have Jon start suspecting.

[Thucydides]

I don't know. I've never been a fan of the idea that there's something significant inside Lyanna's tomb. To recover it, they'd essentially have to disinter Lyanna.

The question would be why they would disinter Lyanna. Would Howland Reed know what was in her tomb and urge her disinterment? Why wouldn't Ned simply leave the evidence with Howlad Reed for safe keeping? Would Northern Lords and Stark family members feel comfortable disintering Lyanna in order to verify the claim of a bastard?

I don't remember reading anything in the books about practices of disinterment, but I'm guessing that disintering someone is generally considered disrespectful.

Maybe there's a secret compartment holding the evidence, but that seems a bit hokey.

[Ygrain]

I don't know. I've never been a fan of the idea that there's something significant inside Lyanna's tomb. To recover it, they'd essentially have to disinter Lyanna.

The question would be why they would disinter Lyanna. Would Howland Reed know what was in her tomb and urge her disinterment? Why wouldn't Ned simply leave the evidence with Howlad Reed for safe keeping? Would Northern Lords and Stark family members feel comfortable disintering Lyanna in order to verify the claim of a bastard?

I don't remember reading anything in the books about practices of disinterment, but I'm guessing that disintering someone is generally considered disrespectful.

Maybe there's a secret compartment holding the evidence, but that seems a bit hokey.

I agree that the tomb wouldn't be disturbed without a damn good reason, but currently, Winterfell is in the hands of a person mad enough to desecrate the Stark tombs just to prove a point. Should he do so before witnesses...

[Castellan]

good idea about why she had a statue.

adding an imaginary harp though,...

[Thucydides]

I agree that the tomb wouldn't be disturbed without a damn good reason, but currently, Winterfell is in the hands of a person mad enough to desecrate the Stark tombs just to prove a point. Should he do so before witnesses...

That's a good point. It doesn't have to be desecrated by someone friendly to the Starks.

[Lummel]

...It is not. Abduction and rape =/= relationship, so finding an object belonging to Rhaegar in Lyanna's tomb would be a source of a major WTF?! moment. Finding a Targaryen wedding cloak an even bigger one, and either would lead to an important realisation: Ned lied. He lied about what was between his sister and Rhaegar, and if he lied about this, he could have lied about other things, as well...

I never got the impression that Ned was the source of the story that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna. As far as I can remember the timeline and where the characters where it is most unlikely. I don't think there is any suggestion that he even commented on the nature of their relationship. My impression is that this is simply something that he never made a public pronouncement about.

Rhaegar publicly crowns Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Harrenhall tournament, later Rhaegar abducts Lyanna. I'm sure that is enough for a wide range of speculation to develop amongst the Westerosi nobility and for the idea to be wide spread that there was something going on between them. Even if only from Rhaegar's side. Forced marriages aren't unknown either in the story. One can still have evidence of marriage and for that to not contradict a rape story.

The problem is not linking Lyanna to Rhaegar, it is linking Lyanna to Jon. What is needed to be story changing is some form of evidence that links Lyanna to a live child and for that to naturally point towards Jon.

[jon stark I]

I have to believe R+L theory because it had too many evidince to prove it although I still want Jon to be Neds son unfortunetly my wishes are irrelavent.But come on guys there is already too many evidince to prove your theory as the most likely one but this one is too ridicolous.I mean first of all noone describes Lyannas statue with a harp secondly why plant a harp inside, it serves no purpose and I don't think anyone will remember Rheagars harp I mean I get that people will remember his armor or his sword or even his horse(maybe) but a harp is nothing special.Rheagar was a celebrity but noone remember that I mean even if someone remembers that harp who will believe him, there is no meaning in a harp.There are better theories about whats inside that tomb or statue maybe a targeryan wedding cloak maybe a targeryan crown maybe a dragon egg but a harp?Come on!!!!!!!

[Ygrain]

I never got the impression that Ned was the source of the story that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna. As far as I can remember the timeline and where the characters where it is most unlikely. I don't think there is any suggestion that he even commented on the nature of their relationship. My impression is that this is simply something that he never made a public pronouncement about.

Rhaegar publicly crowns Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Harrenhall tournament, later Rhaegar abducts Lyanna. I'm sure that is enough for a wide range of speculation to develop amongst the Westerosi nobility and for the idea to be wide spread that there was something going on between them. Even if only from Rhaegar's side. Forced marriages aren't unknown either in the story. One can still have evidence of marriage and for that to not contradict a rape story.

The problem is not linking Lyanna to Rhaegar, it is linking Lyanna to Jon. What is needed to be story changing is some form of evidence that links Lyanna to a live child and for that to naturally point towards Jon.

It is quite certain that Ned didn't speak about Lyanna much but we do have Bran parrotting the official version of kidnapping and rape, and that had to come up from somewhere. Even if Ned didn't say it with his own mouth, he still let the lie live, and Jon most probably wouldn't know that Ned himself wasn't the source.

You are right that the link is only indirect but still, it allows for turning thoughts in the right direction:

Lyanna+Rhaegar - one secret

Jon's mother - another secret

both secrets from approximately the same time

Not a proof, but enough to raise suspicion.

[Oneorobertsbastards]

I agree with lummel. Finding a harp in the tomb, even if it's inscribed "property of Rheagar Targaryan" does nothing to link Jon to Lyanna, only Rheagar to Lyanna.. It is widely known that there is a Rheagar-Lyanna link, regardless of the nature of their "relationship" (be it abduction/rape, an illicit affair, or a legitimate marriage). Even a wedding cloak and a wedding date would not be enough for Jon to assume he is the child no one knows was born or even conceived.

For a discovery of some inanimate object, even a sentimental one to have any meaning in regards to Jon's identity he needs to have suspicions before he even goes down there. Just like GRRM's readership, he has to be on the look out for clues and trying to make connections, otherwise a cigar is just a cigar.

[Iona]

I've wondered the same thing. Other lower levels to the crypt are mentioned. Perhaps the women and even boys/men who were not the lord are buried on lower levels.

I'm not sure if you're asking tongue in cheek or if someone answered, but I thought it was explicitly stated that the women are also buried in the crypts. It's just that the norm was for only first Kings and then Lords to get the statues. It's said that Ned's love for both his brother and his sister is what caused him to give them both statues.

Hmm, doesn't Winterfell have a lichyard as well? Maybe that's were the ladies and lesser sons end up?

I was always under the impression that only the lords and KitNs were in the crypts, possibly because no-one ever mentions anything like "That's Lord SuchandSuch, and his 7 sons are in the grave next to him". In my mind there's only graves with statues there.