Could the Nights Watch be Abolished? Releasing Jon from his Vows

[Duranaparthur]

I'm now thinking the Watch as an organization might have to be almost completely destroyed before Jon would give up the vows, but since that is possible, I'm still thinking there's a strong case for Jon waking up as Lord Commander but eventually abandoning the desiccated corpse if the organization ceases to exist, perhaps alongside his vows. Jon seems aware of the temporal and practical style of his authority. If the black brothers break apart, he might recognize that he can't be Lord Commander any more; there's nothing to command, there's only the war to fight.

So while the Watch for the Night may be over, maybe Jon thinks he's still "the fire that burns against the cold, and the light that brings the dawn."

And I love the idea of some kind of successor organization to the Watch if the Wall falls. Something like the "Dawn Guard" or "Morning Warriors." And maybe they have the older oath that Sam uses at the Nightfort, just customized for a new dawn.

[jons nissa]

Why? Did Tyrion have a choice to leave KL? Did Sansa? (kind of, I suppose, but that's not how I would refer to her escape)

Why must Jon have a choice in this matter? Escape is escape.

because tyrion and sansa leaving kl meant nothing to their vows to remain there. their escape didn't mean anything major to their character arc. jon leaving the watch will mean something to his arc. it's hardly the same.

I believe that the Wall and NW will be reforged so all those useless vows about what people cannot do will be annulled.

even if it is reforged the vows will not be annulled.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

there have been so many interesting ideas in this thread. but this one is not interesting: jon will be released from his vows because of an assassination attempt thereby allowing him to move to a grander role without breaking any vows. that is not the story grrm is writing, folks.

having said that, there are three issues involving jon and the watch.

first and most important, as Lamprey mentioned, there has been a mutiny against the last two commanders. that shows there are serious internal problems plaguing the organization. further, there are serious external problems with the watch since no one is taking them seriously and supporting from the realm even though they are a public organization. so the watch may be scrapped and revamped into night's watch 2.0 which a new jon would still be obliged to honor.

second, jon is on ice at the moment and most likely will be for a while given the vision we've had from melisandre seeing a wolf then man then wolf. he won't pop up at the start of the next book and say, i was dead but i'm better now. so it is very likely that there will be a new lord commander when jon is finally "awakened". it's any man's guess how that will play out but i'm positive there will not be a magical get out of jail card for jon because of the fact that he was considered dead. another unknown is who jon will be when he rises again. i seem to recall grrm saying we should expect a darker jon but please don't ask where i read it. it's from one of the many interviews. plus, he will probably learn about his heritage in the next book which will definitely leave it's mark upon him. it can't be any other way when learning what we suspect about r+l. i don't think jon will stop thinking of ned as his father but he will probably have some changes in his way of looking at thing as a result of finally learning the truth about his parents. anyway, this means "new jon" might have a very different outlook on things. i'm not expecting him to be a whole other person but he may make decisions that surprise us.

third, even with the news of his parents and being resurrected, jon will still take his role as protector of the realm seriously ( I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.) but we don't know how he'll interpret that in the future especially if there is indeed a new lord commander in place and things are running smoothly. shifting his focus to protecting the north as kitn has nothing to do with the starks or winterfell. or perhaps he will become the night king although stannis seems to hold that role already. or perhaps he might see his duty as an even bigger role. or perhaps not and he'll decide to just hang around the wall even after the threat from the others has been removed (which i think is inevitable since no one expects an "other" to sit the iron throne :P ). hard to say but whatever will happen, it will be conscious decision made by jon not a trick or loophole.

yes, it isn't unheard of. this is also supported by grrm himself:

September 07, 2000

Night’s Watch Oath

Two questions. First, any estimated date when the fourth volume will be released?

Depends on when I get it done. Sometime in 2002, most likely.

The second concerns the oaths of the Night Watch, Maesters, King's Guard, silent sisters, etc. Both Robb and Stannis, and presumably Robb's great lords, thought it was possible that Jon could be released form his oaths. Other than the precedent established by Joffrey with Ser Barristan, is there any other past precedent with any of the other organizations were the members swear poverty, celibacy, etc. to be honorably released from their vows? I ask because if the NW has been around for 8000 years, and many great lords and/or their families may have joined (not entirely willing in some cases), there seems to be a lot of potential for "exceptions" to develop as time went on.

Yes, there have been a few other cases, but they have been very rare. Such vows are taken very seriously.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Nights_Watch_Oath

but again, if he is "released" it will because he asks to be not because of a trick. and i really don't think that's how it will happen since it's way too disney for grrm.

I disagree, I dont think Jon will be down for long, maybe 1 Ghost chapter, then he'll be back.

So the SSM is that some members of the watch have broken their vows and were not beheaded.

My point is that by killing him, the NW released Jon, not the other way around. I dont think he will break his vows, his vows broke him. they are kicking him out, voted him off the island. he cannot stay any longer, he is exiled, exile by death from stab wounds.

[Ser Not Appearing]

because tyrion and sansa leaving kl meant nothing to their vows to remain there. their escape didn't mean anything major to their character arc. jon leaving the watch will mean something to his arc. it's hardly the same.

Being forced to leave preserves his arc and integrity, actually. Him actively choosing to forsake his vows is the impact you imagine. Even then, this is the dogged attachment to what you think you know that I referenced earlier. GRRM may not change Jon's mind... but he most certainly can and if he chose to do so it would go off without a hitch... as would an unfolding set of circumstances that turns Jon away from the wall despite that he may not independently choose it under other circumstances. Our collective lack of creativity doesn't dictate the choices of someone like GRRM who does have that creativity and writing ability.

Your "why" is simply your desire for an outcome. It is in no way certain or supported by the text. It is just a preference.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

even if it is reforged the vows will not be annulled.

Why not? New Wall, new NW new vows.

[jons nissa]

Being forced to leave preserves his arc and integrity, actually. Him actively choosing to forsake his vows is the impact you imagine.

it is precisely for this reason that he will not get an easy out.

I disagree, I dont think Jon will be down for long, maybe 1 Ghost chapter, then he'll be back.

So the SSM is that some members of the watch have broken their vows and were not beheaded.

My point is that by killing him, the NW released Jon, not the other way around. I dont think he will break his vows, his vows broke him. they are kicking him out, voted him off the island. he cannot stay any longer, he is exiled, exile by death from stab wounds.

not going to happen. he will not be voted out. grrm has said time and time again that the only thing worth writing about is the inner human struggle (seriously poor paraphrasing)

Why not? New Wall, new NW new vows.

sigh. folks if you'd like to think this will happen, feel free to. but that's really not the story grrm's been writing so far and i highly doubt it would change so drastically as to give someone something freely when others have to pay for it.

eta:

ahhh. found it!

His favorite quote is from William Faulkner after he received the Nobel Prize for Literature..."...the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself which alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat. That is his mantra.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C92/P30

[Suzanna Stormborn]

it is precisely for this reason that he will not get an easy out.

not going to happen. he will not be voted out. grrm has said time and time again that the only thing worth writing about is the inner human struggle (seriously poor paraphrasing)

sigh. folks if you'd like to think this will happen, feel free to. but that's really not the story grrm's been writing so far and i highly doubt it would change so drastically as to give someone something freely when others have to pay for it.

Well tell us then what story GRRM has been writing. From where i sit it is the most unpredictable story i ever read.

And I dont think he will be voted out, I think he already was. they killed him, magic does happen in these stories, but there is no 2 ways about how Jon was stabbed. They killed him, I believe he will come back, because characters come back in aSOIAF, but the NW killed jon and removed his title of LC. it is no choice of his.

[Dany Girl]

I don't think anyone would want to abolish the Watch. Remember, they use it as a prison colony. If you abolish the Watch, you release all the prisoners, or exiled first born sons (Mace would not be happy to have Sam available to stake his claim).

I could see the IT declaring them enemies of the state and calling on his bannermen to kill them all. There are only a few hundred Watchmen I believe. The castles have no protection from the south. They would not be able to put up much of a fight if the Kings army matched on them.

[jons nissa]

Well tell us then what story GRRM has been writing. From where i sit it is the most unpredictable story i ever read.

And I dont think he will be voted out, I think he already was. they killed him, magic does happen in these stories, but there is no 2 ways about how Jon was stabbed. They killed him, I believe he will come back, because characters come back in aSOIAF, but the NW killed jon and removed his title of LC. it is no choice of his.

yes, i suspect the watch will elect a new lord commander but they cannot remove his title. one is lord commander for life. so there will be a problem when jon "returns". however, they cannot "vote him out of the watch" without his choice. no one has the authority to do that and eve if they did, that will not happen.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

yes, i suspect the watch will elect a new lord commander but they cannot remove his title. one is lord commander for life. so there will be a problem when jon "returns". however, they cannot "vote him out of the watch" without his choice. no one has the authority to do that and eve if they did, that will not happen.

Yeah but, so you are saying that they will elect a new LC, and that Jon will still be LC? I mean that makes no sense. There can only be 1 LC. What do you think will happen then? That Jon will not accept and fight to the death to stay in the Watch?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

sigh. folks if you'd like to think this will happen, feel free to. but that's really not the story grrm's been writing so far and i highly doubt it would change so drastically as to give someone something freely when others have to pay for it.

To me the style you describe is off. So, seeng all the connections between Star Wars and ASOIAF looks only natural to see the connection between NW after LN2.0 and the New Jedi Order.

[Ser Not Appearing]

it is precisely for this reason that he will not get an easy out.

I can most definitely appreciate that you feel this way.

If I find the time (and remember) I'll come back and describe this in more detail... but my point is that your desire for this is based on who you want and believe Jon to be and the growth forward that you desire from him. There is nothing which says he needs to grow, let alone grow in that way. He may well just be permanently "flawed" as a letter-of-the-law, loyal-to-his-vows person such that he'd never choose not to honor a vow unless that choice is removed. A good author can remove that choice and not have it seem an easy out. Jon can struggle with this plenty. It can remain an issue that adds depth to his character as he is forced into action outside his desired service.

It also has effect outside Jon, as the direction of the NW drives the invasion of the Others and support for various kingly factions, not to mention the Wildlings. A choice by the NW as a whole to reject Jon and war with the Wildlings (or whatever is involved) can easily be a catalyst for things.

It's just not as simple as you/we ever think... because we don't know where GRRM is heading.

[jons nissa]

Yeah but, so you are saying that they will elect a new LC, and that Jon will still be LC? I mean that makes no sense. There can only be 1 LC. What do you think will happen then? That Jon will not accept and fight to the death to stay in the Watch?

the watch will most likely believe jon to be dead so it will indeed make sense that they will elect a new lc. however, that doesn't remove the title from jon. it's very similar to the president of the u.s. flying in air force one and it is shot down. after an exhaustive search among the wreckage it is determined that no one could have survived the crash and the vice president assumes the role of president. then, 4 weeks later, the president is found. there are two presidents. one will have to back down and it will be the new one who assumed the role.

now the situation with the watch is hardly as neat but jon will still hold the title when he comes out of his coma regardless of who was newly elected. that doesn't just go away.

[jons nissa]

I can most definitely appreciate that you feel this way.

If I find the time (and remember) I'll come back and describe this in more detail... but my point is that your desire for this is based on who you want and believe Jon to be and the growth forward that you desire from him. There is nothing which says he needs to grow, let alone grow in that way. He may well just be permanently "flawed" as a letter-of-the-law loyal person such that he'd never choose not to honor a vow unless that choice is removed. A good author can remove that choice and not have it seem an easy out. Jon can struggle with this plenty. It can remain an issue that adds depth to his character as he is forced into action outside his desired service.

it's not a given that jon will leave the watch, you know. but if he does, i can almost guarantee it won't be an easy out. almost :P

[Ser Not Appearing]

it's not a given that jon will leave the watch, you know.

Exactly.

And if he doesn't, GRRM will definitely pull off this unexpected non-turn of events. How much easier would it be to have an expected turn of events unfold in a manner that you don't desire?

[jons nissa]

It also has effect outside Jon, as the direction of the NW drives the invasion of the Others and support for various kingly factions, not to mention the Wildlings. A choice by the NW as a whole to reject Jon and war with the Wildlings (or whatever is involved) can easily be a catalyst for things.

It's just not as simple as you/we ever think... because we don't know where GRRM is heading.

i believe this is the main reason for jon's assassination. it has already begun to be a catalyst within the watch.

And if he doesn't, GRRM will definitely pull off this unexpected non-turn of events. How much easier would it be to have an expected turn of events unfold in a manner that you don't desire?

i don't understand what you are saying here. sorry.

[Ser Not Appearing]

i don't understand what you are saying here. sorry.

That you are willing to allow a possible expected outcome isn't guaranteed - "it's not a given that jon will leave the watch, you know" - should tell you something about your unwillingness to believe that an expected outcome, (that he leaves the watch), might unfold in a manner other than what you expect.

An unexpected outcome is far less likely than an expected outcome with unexpected minutia in the details. One should not, as you have done, try to defend the latter by conceding the former. In essence, you have already provided yourself proof that it's not unreasonable to discuss / allow for how Jon could get the "easy out."

[Greymoon]

If Jon ever wakes, I can see him becoming the "man" he's tried so hard to be (I see the stabbing as a quite literal "kill the boy" thing). He'll be angry, and he won't let anyone walk all over him again. IMO, he'll become an oath breaker in the eyes of the realm - but he won't leave the Wall. He might turn the watch into a standing army against Freys and Boltons and other abominations however ;) still, ultimately he won't forget his "duty."

He's not stupid, he knows what's coming - I rather see him "take charge," with his wildlings friends. He'll dispose of traitors and whatever poor sod is sitting on his LC chair... there'll be some crows hanging from the Wall...he'll make Melisandre, Selyse and Shireen his prisoners, and then move on to fry bigger fish - Ramsay, Roose...Stannis...

Anyway...just an idea. :)

[jons nissa]

That you are willing to allow a possible expected outcome isn't guaranteed - "it's not a given that jon will leave the watch, you know" - should tell you something about your unwillingness to believe that an expected outcome, (that he leaves the watch), might unfold in a manner other than what you expect.

An unexpected outcome is far less likely than an expected outcome with unexpected minutia in the details. One should not, as you have done, try to defend the latter by conceding the former. In essence, you have already provided yourself proof that it's not unreasonable to discuss how Jon could get the "easy out."

my saying jon may not leave hardly proves what you are saying. the expected outcome and premise of this thread is that jon will be magically freed from his vows and allowed to leave the wall and become ..... something. i'm saying that he will not be freed and that this expected outcome is not likely to happen as it would be an easy out for the character. he will have to wrestle with something - be it to learn of his heritage but chose to turn his back to it and remain at the wall and deal with possibly feeling as though he failed his true family or he will embrace it and leave the wall and feel as though he failed his brothers. it will not be both or neither. he will not learn he is a targ heir, be forced to leave without breaking his vow and become what ever he will become. and he will not remain at the wall and feel happy-go-lucky thinking this was the only possible choice to make either. he will have to pay somewhere, somehow.

and are you really talking about not having a minutia of details? in this series?

[Daendrew]

The Watch serves the realms of men, not the Seven Kingdoms.