Daenerys the betrayer

[Skagosi High Chef]

Nor I, the answer is in lord Davos's finger bone pouch.

[RoamingRonin]

Why? I was agreeing with the guy, Daenerys has shown no signs that she cares how they were selected, how on planet earth is it fan fiction that guilty grand masters walked free? No more fan fiction than that all the ones put up were the ones who suggested and carried out this heinous crime.

Thats the point. We don't know. And if we don't know, its likely to assume she doesn't, since this is a story that relies on POV's of singular characters, and doesn't tend to skimp on details.

Either we don't know or she did execute guilty people. Which?

[Skagosi High Chef]

She executed both guilty and innocent people.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Either we don't know or she did execute guilty people. Which?

She executed both guilty and innocent people.

Exactly. While other guilty people walked away unharmed. What we dont know is, and what she doesnt seem to know, is which was which. Therein lies the problem.

[Wmarshal]

The issue people have with Dany is that she never goes on or sends others to investgate facts instead all her actions are based on what her gut say, and if her gut said you must die you will die.

[sleath56]

The issue people with Dany is that she never goes on or sends others to investgate facts instead all her actions are based on what gut say, and if her gut said you must die you will die.

Basically this.

[Lord Damian]

Dany had a choice at Astapor, she could have had the unsullied free all of the slaves and leave the slave holders standing around looking at each other with the whips in one hand and their junk in the other. What she did was particularly ruthless. It is funny, she did not mind Drogo enslaving helpless people so he could sell them like cattle to pay for her conquest of Westeros.

[Vicious Fire]

I have mixed opinions about Daenerys as a character, specially since I read her disastrous "ruling" on Meereen.

However, using an event in the book that needed to be done in order for whatever GRRM wanted to write in Meereen, is just ridiciulous and hypocritical to me.

Defending slavers :dunno: :thumbsdown:

[RoamingRonin]

Exactly. While other guilty people walked away unharmed.

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[Stoned Dragon]

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</thread>

[Parwan]

...

In short, Astapor is fucked, and its all her fault, through both niavety and unnecessary cruelty.

She had over 8,000 Unsullied, and was planning on freeing all the slaves, no way was this limited to the Plaza.

....

I repeat: There is no proof that Dany sacked Astapor. Actually, I'll make the assertion stronger. There isn't any evidence that Dany sacked Astapor. Such evidence as exists is all on the other side. Sacking is the looting or plundering of a conquered city. I don't see any indication whatsoever that Dany's forces did any "looting" or "plundering" worthy of the terms. Quite the contrary. The slaves who followed her to Yunkai remained quite poor. They grabbed a few weapons from their former masters' armories. That's the size of it.

What is "this"? Is it freeing the slaves? Okay, she gets the Unsullied, and she uses them to destroy the unimpressive Astapori cavalry. She also kills an unspecified number of other people in the plaza. The text tells us nothing about what happens next. She could easily now do "this" with no further violence at all. If the upper classes had any sense whatsoever, they would surrender. I see no reason to believe that Dany would then kill most of them. The text does not give us any direct order to kill all the rich people in the city. Dany does not kill all the ruling class of any other city. One of the arguments that Ser Jorah uses to convince Dany to acquire Unsullied is that these soldiers are highly disciplined and will not do the sort of things other soldiers commonly do unless specifically ordered to do so. In Meereen, the queen uses these soldiers to end the sacking of the city. Finally, as I said before, any Astapori citizen who felt threatened had a very easy counter measure--take off the tokar. If those people had any brains at all, they did so.

Dany was wrong to march quickly from Astapor. However, claiming that what happened after her departure is all her fault is a massive exaggeration.

[Belisarius09]

Firstly, let's clarify something, Dany's action were not evil they were born of a rightious indignation of the atrocity that was the institution that created the Unsullied.

I'm sorry but sacking a city guarantees deaths of innocents. Dany's actions were evil plain and simple. Sacking a city is not a "good act." You can say she had good intentions, but even that is debatable since one can argue she was acting only with her own benefit in mind. If you're saying sacking a city isn't an evil act but a righteous act then frankly you're a madman.

Secondly, this is highly hypocritical of Dany to condemn slavery like this. She enjoyed the service of slaves in Pentos, and encouraged Khal Drogo to enslave many peaceful peoples to fuel her own selfish desires. I guess slavery is only evil when it runs counter to Dany's goals of conquest? But when it helps in those goals, she turns away and pretends not to see it. Unless I missed the chapter where Dany orders the slaughter of every Dothraki over the age of 12???

[Nictarion]

I'm sorry but sacking a city guarantees deaths of innocents. Dany's actions were evil plain and simple. Sacking a city is not a "good act." You can say she had good intentions, but even that is debatable since one can argue she was acting only with her own benefit in mind. If you're saying sacking a city isn't an evil act but a righteous act then frankly you're a madman.

Secondly, this is highly hypocritical of Dany to condemn slavery like this. She enjoyed the service of slaves in Pentos, and encouraged Khal Drogo to enslave many peaceful peoples to fuel her own selfish desires. I guess slavery is only evil when it runs counter to Dany's goals of conquest? But when it helps in those goals, she turns away and pretends not to see it. Unless I missed the chapter where Dany orders the slaughter of every Dothraki over the age of 12???

See Parwan's post above yours. It wasn't a sack, I've used that word before describing Astapor, but Parwan is right. It wasn't a sack.

And we know it was her learning how the Unsullied were made that opened her eyes about the horror of slavery.

[CaptainTheo]

I agree with the OP. This - the sack of Astapor - is the point where I ceased liking Dany and no longer considered her to be a 'good' character. I had already been a bit leery of her when she shed no tears over Viserys' murder, but this was the real shock. I was horrified. It made Dany seem like a total hypocrite as she wouldn't tolerate an ounce of betrayal from anyone else yet had no qualms committing betrayal of her own here by not only reneging on the deal but destroying lots of innocent people and their way of life. Dany might just have become my least favourite character as a result. Also a little disturbing that the thoroughly good character Ser Barristan didn't seem to have a problem with it. Yes, the slavery itself was wrong and brutal, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I'll concede that it was brutally effective for her own self-interest.

[El Guapo]

See Parwan's post above yours. It wasn't a sack, I've used that word before describing Astapor, but Parwan is right. It wasn't a sack.

And we know it was her learning how the Unsullied were made that opened her eyes about the horror of slavery.

Dany is not allowed to evolve in her thinking. She must always have the same beliefs as she did as a 14 year old.

It is known.

[Bronn Urgandy]

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Err, I am not sure what any of that shit is supposed to mean. But apart from the methods being too brutal, my point has always been that her particular brand of "justice" was too indiscriminate. Which *gasp* goes both ways.

[Nictarion]

Captain Theo

Dany did mourn Viserys. We know she didn't laugh or smile for weeks after his death. She was clearly depressed over it. She also is still thinking of him in her last chapter in ADwD. She may not have broke down and cried right when it happened, but she did grieve for him.

[Wmarshal]

Dany is not allowed to evolve in her thinking. She must always have the same beliefs as she did as a 14 year old.

It is known.

Those 13 year old ghiscari sure weren't aloud to evolve their thinking.

[RoamingRonin]

Secondly, this is highly hypocritical of Dany to condemn slavery like this. She enjoyed the service of slaves in Pentos, and encouraged Khal Drogo to enslave many peaceful peoples to fuel her own selfish desires. I guess slavery is only evil when it runs counter to Dany's goals of conquest? But when it helps in those goals, she turns away and pretends not to see it. Unless I missed the chapter where Dany orders the slaughter of every Dothraki over the age of 12???

1. Pentos doesn't have slaves.

a ) She wasn't in any control of her situation. She was sold to Khal Drogo or have you forgotten that?

b ) Now Dany is supposed to jump off of the page in her first scene as a completely developed character? Day one, page one, she must be on a mission to gather an army and end slavery?

2. She encouraged Khal Drogo to go to war and he said no... until she and her unborn child were nearly assassinated. Yes, it's totally selfish they want to ensure that people trying to kill them.

... Do you even know what her khalasar consists of?

"Whence came this madness?Should I count myself fortunate that you did not free my own slaves when you were my guest in Qarth?"

I was a beggar queen and you were Xaro of the Thirteen, Dany thought, and all you wanted were my dragons. "Your slaves seemed well treated and content. It was not till Astapor that my eyes were opened. Do you know how Unsullied are made and trained?"

Stick to the facts.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Dany was wrong to march quickly from Astapor. However, claiming that what happened after her departure is all her fault is a massive exaggeration.

By that logic nothing that happens in Afghanistan or Iraq after U.S. military intervention is American responsibility. But I bet you aren't on that team are you?