Lack of advancement in Westeros

[Oneorobertsbastards]

So the Dawn age was roughly 12,000 years ago when the first men came across the arm of Dorne to invade Westeros. The Andals invaded about 6000 years ago. Since then metallurgy has advanced, but not much else. Seems like plenty of time for Westeros to become more technologically advanced, yet they're still riding horses, using swords and bearing shields just like the FM, using ravens as messengers and living in the same castles built hundreds, maybe thousands of years ago. Why does Westeros still operate as such a technologically impaired society? Aside from just being a convenient setting for the story, why have they not advanced? Is it magic related or am I missing something?

[Jairion Lannister]

It does seem a bit stranger but part of me thinks the seasons might have something to do with it. Long, harsh winters would probably hamper a lot of development people make, at least in some places in Westeros. Barring that though, it's probably simply because the author wanted to write this sort of world, but still give it a deep, long history.

[RK Rajagopal]

So the Dawn age was roughly 12,000 years ago when the first men came across the arm of Dorne to invade Westeros. The Andals invaded about 6000 years ago. Since then metallurgy has advanced, but not much else. Seems like plenty of time for Westeros to become more technologically advanced, yet they're still riding horses, using swords and bearing shields just like the FM, using ravens as messengers and living in the same castles built hundreds, maybe thousands of years ago. Why does Westeros still operate as such a technologically impaired society? Aside from just being a convenient setting for the story, why have they not advanced? Is it magic related or am I missing something?

For one thing, it is just a story, so I wouldn't question the scientific plausibility of the premise too much.

Secondly, even in the real world, I believe things really kicked on with the invention of the steam engine and the industrial revolution. Prior to that, progress was slow for several thousand years.

[Oneorobertsbastards]

I'm just beginning to think the maesters are worthless.

[Oneorobertsbastards]

For one thing, it is just a story, so I wouldn't question the scientific plausibility premise too much.

Secondly, even in the real world, I believe things really kicked on with the invention of the steam engine and the industrial revolution. Prior to that, progress was slow for several thousand years.

Of course I realize it can just be a matter of the author desiring this type of setting, but I see no reason to write it off as "just a story" as pretty much any topic or question posted in these forums can be explained by way of that logic.

So to compare it to real life and the timeline of the invention of the steam engine, the steam engine was invented in the early 1700's. So the Middle Ages were roughly from the 6th to13th century. That's no comparison at all with the amount of time Westeros has had. I don't think GRRM would simply say "eh, it's a story". Alternatively he might use the all encompassing "it's magic" explanation, but my reason for asking was to see if anyone had any opinions on this,

[Mourneblade]

Magic.

As long as there is magic there is no need for science.

Also we have a conflict of religion and beliefs, as well as a lack of sustainable food due to climate, that have held the world in a dark age for about 8000 years.

[SerJamie]

I think most of it is because the advancement of mankind serves no purpose in the story, which focuses heavily on a medieval society and its warfare, social structure, politics etc. How people did things in other periods are irrelevant; how people did things in the Middle Ages are integral to the story.

[Fanless Mace]

China had major dynastic battles as far back as 2500 BC (see "Battle of Banquan" on Wikipedia for one example...and China's written history goes back fairly impeded to 1700-2000 BC.) Gunpowder was used first for military purposes probably only about a thousand years ago. And the state of technology in ASOIAF is roughly Middle Ages, perhaps 1000 ADish. That's over 3500 years of human history. It's not too much of a stretch to double that, as GRRM basically has. It is a fantasy.

But...is there no gunpowder, or is wildfire just gunpowder? If so, I find it hard to believe it isn't used more widely. Likewise with smoking...nobody smokes anything. It seems technologically unlikely to me on both counts.

However, I strongly suspect the connection of wildfire to the story of the Mad King, how he was going to use this new, secret technology to burn everything down, that's no idle imagery. I'm sure GRRM has this world teetering on the edge of modernity, guns are coming and dragons going. Fire in the future will be ever more controlled by technicians, less by magicians. Out with the Melissadra's, in with the learned men. It's a key element of the story, this wildfire thing.

[RK Rajagopal]

Of course I realize it can just be a matter of the author desiring this type of setting, but I see no reason to write it off as "just a story" as pretty much any topic or question posted in these forums can be explained by way of that logic.

So to compare it to real life and the timeline of the invention of the steam engine, the steam engine was invented in the early 1700's. So the Middle Ages were roughly from the 6th to13th century. That's no comparison at all with the amount of time Westeros has had. I don't think GRRM would simply say "eh, it's a story". Alternatively he might use the all encompassing "it's magic" explanation, but my reason for asking was to see if anyone had any opinions on this,

The Egyptian dynasty had formed by about 5000 BC. It was fairly well developed by 3000BC, as the pyramids were built around that time. That was a well developed society ~4,500 years before the steam engine.

Secondly,Maesters question the age of the ASOIAF world, and say that it is probably much younger than 12,000 years.

[Kienn]

Probably more like 600 years not 12000.

[Oneorobertsbastards]

I was using 12,000 just because it's what it said in the wiki.

The smoking thing was curious too. I agree with most all posts that the setting is (obviously) imperative to the story. Also the Egyptian reference makes a good point as well. Makes me accept this idea of no advancement a little easier.

[Red Raven]

Sam was going through some documents and he doubts some events were as along ago as the folklore says it is. That plus wacky seasons are probably helping to hold things back.

[sleath56]

First of all. The steam engine was invented in c.100 BC.

Also, wildfire does not mean 'gunpowder; it is the equivalent of our Greek Fire.

[Pod The Impaler]

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about this - it is probably related to the fact that they have seasons that are a variable number of years long.

This is the setting we accepted when we read this stuff. It is known.

[Sir Lee knot]

Planetos hardly advances in technology because they don't put much stock in science. Just look at human history.

for the first 90,000 years of human history we barely changed. We lived in caves or tents and hunted with stone pointed spears.

In the last 10,000 years we began the agricultural revolution were we finally started growing food and keeping animals as livestock.

It's only been in the last 1000 years that technology is finally started advancing faster and faster. We've made more improvements in technology in the last 100 years then we have in the past 90,000 years of our history.

The reason everything changed a thousand years ago is because that's when science started getting more popular and widely known but before science it took hundreds of years just for someone to invent the next best thing.

Basically the same stuff is happening in asoiaf. The most scientific group is the maesters and even they hardly come close to real scientists so it's entirely possible that not much changes for 8000 years. Also someone pointed out that the time certain events happened are probably wrong. I'd put the long night closer to 6000 then 8000 and I seriously doubt the Starks have ruled the north unbroken for 8000 years probably more like 800 and even that's hardly believable.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

There is no lack of advancement in Westeros. The fault lies with the perception, which equals the real world. For comparison, church paintings from the middle ages or the renaissance depict King David as a knight in chainmail and roman legionnaires as contemporary landsknechts.

Very, very few people will know how the circumstances of live changed. Only what their grandfather told. Therefore, they'll project their surroundings backwards, giving us in turn a really skewed perception.

Very rarely we get an infodump showing it for the BS it is though. Samwell Tarly, Rodrik Harlaw, Maester Aemon, Maester Luwin, the novices in the Feast prologue, Lord Borrell, even Jaime, they all share a line or two with us where they point out that the dates are wrong, that Symon Star-Eyes, the knight of the KG in the Dawn Age can't have existed, that architecture changed due to improved knowledge, that shipbuilding has evolved.

Altogether maybe half a page in the entire series. But it exists and shows us that indeed just the Westerosi/our perception is wrong.

[Fire Eater]

SSM:

There is an aspect of a SOI&F (and all high/medieval fanatasy) which has me puzzled. Why is there so little technological procees? The Starks have been medieval lords and kings for millenia, and it seems that there is very little chance of Westeros ever progessing beyond a medieval society. Is this becuase the existence of magic inhibits or precludes linear technological progress?

Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

I don't know that "linear technological progress" is necessarily inevitable in a society. In fact, if you look at our real world, it only happened once. Other cultures and societies existed for hundreds and in some cases thousands of years without ever experiencing major technological change.

In the specific case of Westeros, the unpredictable nature of the seasonal changes and the harshness of the winters must play a role.

I do think that magic perhaps makes development of the scientific method less likely. If men can fly by means of a spell, do you ever get the Wright Brothers? Or even daVinci? An interesting question, and I'm not sure I know the answer.

Steven Atwell gives an argument:

So…Westeros and technological development:

If you look at the timeline of the existence of human beings (and granted, recent advances in physical anthropology has really shaken things up about when exactly homo sapiens got started and how we got here), the 8,000 years of Westerosi history either looks stagnant or incredibly advanced, depending on when you start the timeline.

The Paleolithic period lasted for 2.59 million years. The Neolithic lasted for anywhere between 6,000 to 8,000 years. The Bronze Age for 2,000 years. Depending on when you put the start date, you can easily construct 8,000 years of history with virtually no technological innovation. Indeed, when you look at a graph of GDP per capita (a crude measure of technological innovation) since 10,000 BC, it looks like a hockey stick, with virtually no advances until the Industrial Revolution.

By comparison, Westeros has gone from the Bronze Age to the High Middle Ages/Renaissance (depending on where you are) in 8,000 years. Start at roughly 1500 CE in our timeline and go back 8,000 years, and you’re smack dab in the Neolithic period.

So if anything, Westeros is advancing faster than we did.

[Gneisenau]

It could be knowledge keeps getting destroyed.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Saying there was no development prior to the steam engine is nonsense. The telescope, gunpowder, the printing press, the stirrup were all massively important technological inventions.

And the Europe of 1300 was vastly more sophisticated and developed than the Europe of 300.

[Yukle]

It makes much more sense if you take into account the fact that the Maestars are recording information well after the fact.

So, in all likelihood, the Andal invasion was with stone weapons, or even wood. But when recording it thousands of years later, the maesters would write that they used metal swords simply because it wouldn't occur to them to question technology. Historiography, which is the study of how history is written, is not necessarily precise in certain cultures. Some cultures do not really care about it as the story is more important than the details.