Too many new cast members for season 5?

[Fez]

I still think both Dorne and the Iron Islands storylines are going to be severely cut back. So yeah, there will be several new characters; but each group will probably only appear in maybe three episodes each of Season 5 (two near the beginning, one near the end); not exactly crowding out the rest of the cast. And the rest of the new characters are clustered around existing characters, for instance everyone on Tyrion's journey, which gives them both a ready source of screen time and grounds them in the existing world of the show.

As for your list, I predict:

Doran Martell- In

Arianne Martell- In

Quentyn Martell- This whole subplot just gets cut out.

At least one Sand Snake- In, but possibly just a single scene where news of the Red Viper's death comes in

Victarion Greyjoy- In

Euron Greyjoy- In. Easily recognizable though, so that helps.

Wyman Manderly- In. Easily recognizable though, so that helps.

Griff- This really depends on how important Aegon is to the endgame. If he's a red herring, I could see this whole plot just cut out entirely; otherwise, in. Probably at least, they could just have Young Griff on his own, or combine Griff with Harry Strickland.

Young Griff- See above, probably in.

The Kindly Man- Either in or replaced with Jaqen, but something there.

Lady Stoneheart (who I'm counting here as a new character)- Not new, and I still think could be cut.

Aeron Greyjoy- Featured Extra only

Randyll Tarly- In, but only a scene or two

Aero Hotah- Featured Extra only

Another Sand Snake or two- Extras at best

At least two of Arianne's co-conspirators- Cut. I think this subplot is gone.

The High Septon- In

Septon Merribald- Cut

Septa Lemore- In, but only a couple random scenes with Tyrion

Hyle Hunt- Cut

Homeless Harry Strickland- Either cut or combined with Griff

Aurane Waters- Cut, or maybe a featured extra

Barbey Dustin- Cut

Val- In, looks like The Wall is gonna be a primary location going forward

Dalla- Featured extra only

"Nurse"- cut

Moquorro- In, but easily recognizable, which helps.

[Colonel Green]

Lady Stoneheart (who I'm counting here as a new character)- Not new, and I still think could be cut.

They would have to completely alter everything to do with Brienne and Jaime going forward, at a minimum, if they did that.

[Fez]

They would have to completely alter everything to do with Brienne and Jaime going forward, at a minimum, if they did that.

Not necessarily, they could just have the BWB capture Brienne on their own and go from there, changing some motivations around but not the major events. The connection between Cat and Brienne was not nearly as strongly established in the show as it was in the books.

Or, yeah, they could change and simplify things. Brienne could just get captured and die, and Jaime could go forward as he would've anyway up until he would've met her again (so, end of Season 5 probably) and then do something else. If he's destined for LS to kill him in TWOW, then he can just die in some other incident; and if he survives the encounter, they can come up with a different reason for him to do whatever it is he does in TWOW (presumably head to the Vale for Sansa).

[protar]

I still think both Dorne and the Iron Islands storylines are going to be severely cut back. So yeah, there will be several new characters; but each group will probably only appear in maybe three episodes each of Season 5 (two near the beginning, one near the end); not exactly crowding out the rest of the cast.

I think that actually makes the problem worse. You've listed virtually all of the Dornish and Iron Island characters I've listed but you've relegated them all to 3 episodes. Which means they're just going to flash up on the screen for a few minutes and then immediately be forgotten. The aim should not be to give new characters as little screen time as possible it should be to develop them so people actually remember the new guys.

ETA: Also why exactly are you so against Uncat's inclusion?

[Fez]

I think that actually makes the problem worse. You've listed virtually all of the Dornish and Iron Island characters I've listed but you've relegated them all to 3 episodes. Which means they're just going to flash up on the screen for a few minutes and then immediately be forgotten. The aim should not be to give new characters as little screen time as possible it should be to develop them so people actually remember the new guys.

ETA: Also why exactly are you so against Uncat's inclusion?

They don't need to be memorable though. There's plenty of memorable characters already, too many in all honesty for a TV show. They just need to function as plot devices affecting who we already know, which is much easier to remember. "Okay, so Theon's family wants to kidnap Dany's dragons and that new guy who already died's family is really unhappy with the Lannisters and secretly siding with Dany. Got it."

[protar]

They don't need to be memorable though. There's plenty of memorable characters already, too many in all honesty for a TV show. They just need to function as plot devices affecting who we already know, which is much easier to remember. "Okay, so Theon's family wants to kidnap Dany's dragons and that new guy who already died's family is really unhappy with the Lannisters and secretly siding with Dany. Got it."

No. That is bad writing and completely disrespectful to the characters Martin has created. Not every character needs to be interesting it's true, but the ones doing important plot stuff do. If you're going to introduce these new characters in brand new locations, not talking with any of the pre-established characters then you need to make them memorable and interesting or the audience just won't care. Martin himself struggled enough with that, and you want even less of the Dornish and the Ironborn? That's not going to work.

[Fez]

No. That is bad writing and completely disrespectful to the characters Martin has created. Not every character needs to be interesting it's true, but the ones doing important plot stuff do. If you're going to introduce these new characters in brand new locations, not talking with any of the pre-established characters then you need to make them memorable and interesting or the audience just won't care. Martin himself struggled enough with that, and you want even less of the Dornish and the Ironborn? That's not going to work.

Personally, I think the best thing the show could do is just cut the Ironborn and Dorne out of the story entirely. But it seems like that isn't happening. However, what definitely isn't happening is the episodes getting longer, the seasons getting longer, or the roles of existing characters being cut back enough to give establishing time to new characters in new locations. Within these constraints, the only option is for the characters to have only the briefest of introductions, hit their major beats, and exit stage left.

ETA: Being respectful of the characters isn't, and shouldn't, be the priority. Telling a good story is. And its not good storytelling to grind the pacing down and push existing characters to the side to bring in new folks. That was Martin's mistake, and its up to D&D fix that.

[protar]

Personally, I think the best thing the show could do is just cut the Ironborn and Dorne out of the story entirely. But it seems like that isn't happening. However, what definitely isn't happening is the episodes getting longer, the seasons getting longer, or the roles of existing characters being cut back enough to give establishing time to new characters in new locations. Within these constraints, the only option is for the characters to have only the briefest of introductions, hit their major beats, and exit stage left.

ETA: Being respectful of the characters isn't, and shouldn't, be the priority. Telling a good story is. And its not good storytelling to grind the pacing down and push existing characters to the side to bring in new folks. That was Martin's mistake, and its up to D&D fix that.

I think quite the opposite. Good story telling is not reducing the characters to simple plot devices to tick off a list of narrative check boxes. If S5 debuts with a load of nobodies with no effort made to make us care about them, the show will be down the drain pretty quickly. Most casual viewers don't care that this is an adaptation, however you've also got to remain faithful to the original work. So you can't cut these huge pieces of the narrative out, but nor can you just tick them off the list in 5 seconds and leave the Unsullied audience wondering why it's even there.

Imo every main plotline (and I count the Ironborn and the Dornish amongst them) needs at least 5 episodes in S5, with the major plots - Meereen, Kings Landing and the Wall having more. And if we look at the plot lines, here's what we've got anyway:

S5:

• Kingslanding

Wall

Meereen

Tyrion

Braavos

The North

Beyond The Wall

The Vale

Riverlands

Dorne

Iron Islands

That's 11 plotlines, which is a lot for any television show but it's only one more than S3 which had 10 (KL, Jaime, Arya, Robb, Dragonstone, Theon, Sam, Jon, Bran and Dany.). Reduce some of the plots with less material to 5 episodes, give most of the rest 6/7 and bump the big three (Kings Landing, Meereen and The Wall.) up to 8 and you have a perfectly manageable season, especially with many of the narratives tying together a lot.

[Arkekansler]

Hi, it´s possible that I’m missing something so could anybody please explain why the Dorne scenes in the books so far is important? What is actually happening with Arianne and Doran that couldn’t easily be explained later on or presented in other ways? I guess the stuff with Myrcella and Darkstar might be important later on but really that’s the only thing.

I´ve heard a lot of people discussing how to cut down on the Iron islands stuff but even though it’s not my favorite storyline the things that happen there are actually important and, most notably, can’t be presented in any other way.

Cutting out Young Griff would just be dumb. He´s going to play a big role later or else he wouldn’t have been shoehorned into the story.

[Colonel Green]

Most casual viewers don't care that this is an adaptation, however you've also got to remain faithful to the original work.

You can remain faithful to the original work without adapting everything.

[SM4e]

Hi, it´s possible that I’m missing something so could anybody please explain why the Dorne scenes in the books so far is important? What is actually happening with Arianne and Doran that couldn’t easily be explained later on or presented in other ways? I guess the stuff with Myrcella and Darkstar might be important later on but really that’s the only thing.

They must be included as soon as they hear of Oberyn's death. Otherwise it'd destory the characters of the Sandsnakes and Arianne. The wish of revenge is the reason why Arianne is doing her 'crown Myrcella'-subplot.

[Colonel Green]

They must be included as soon as they hear of Oberyn's death. Otherwise it'd destory the characters of the Sandsnakes and Arianne. The wish of revenge is the reason why Arianne is doing her 'crown Myrcella'-subplot.

Is there any reason the "crown Myrcella" subplot itself can't be cut? It goes nowhere. Indeed, if you wanted, you could easily introduce Arianne when she arrives to meet with Aegon in TWOW.

[Annara Snow]

I've also seen it mentioned on here that Griff and Quentyn could potentially be merged into one character and I could get on board with that.

How would this work exactly?

I was wondering the same thing. How and why do you 'merge' two characters who have nothing in common?

Thanks. I do understand your reasoning but I think they will just use a new character unless they cut the whole plot completely. Talisa or Ross would have made more sense but now they are both dead.

*sigh* None of these characters makes any sense whatsoever as fake Arya, for a whole bunch of reasons that have already been discussed on the "Problem with Ms. Poole" thread (and really, don't the words fake Arya make it clear why it makes no sense whatsoever to begin with?). I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Hot Pie or Bronn as fake Arya yet. Or Gendry, he seems to be the go-to "let's shove him into every possible plot/cut character role" in these discussions. (Actually, he would make more sense as fake Arya - he's more innocent for sure, and did not participate in the torture of Theon.)

Here's a radical new idea: how about using Jeyne Poole? There is no "problem" with her. She exists on the show, she was mentioned by name by Sansa in episode 3 or 4 of season 1, her father appeared on the show, and she was seen as played by an extra in the pilot (I'm sure they'll cast someone new though, as with Beric). The audiences are not so stupid to be unable to understand that there are other people around besides those who are in the focus of the story. And if the "problem" is that the audience have no prior emotional investment in her, well, what level of emotional investment did the readers have in Jeyne before ADWD?

Personally, I think the best thing the show could do is just cut the Ironborn and Dorne out of the story entirely.

No.

ETA: Being respectful of the characters isn't, and shouldn't, be the priority. Telling a good story is.

You can't tell a good story without being respectful to the characters. The story is about people, i.e. the characters.

[protar]

You can remain faithful to the original work without adapting everything.

Not if you don't adapt important sections of the book you can't. Cutting out Dorne or the Iron Islands would be the largest change yet.

Hi, it´s possible that I’m missing something so could anybody please explain why the Dorne scenes in the books so far is important? What is actually happening with Arianne and Doran that couldn’t easily be explained later on or presented in other ways? I guess the stuff with Myrcella and Darkstar might be important later on but really that’s the only thing.

I´ve heard a lot of people discussing how to cut down on the Iron islands stuff but even though it’s not my favorite storyline the things that happen there are actually important and, most notably, can’t be presented in any other way.

Cutting out Young Griff would just be dumb. He´s going to play a big role later or else he wouldn’t have been shoehorned into the story.

The Martells have been set up as major Targaryen (or Blackfyre supporters) and are the only region aside from the Vale which has been untouched by the war. They're important. Theoretically you could just never see Dorne or Doran and first meet Arianne when she arrives with Aegon, Quentyn when he turns up in Meereen (which I think will happen) and Nymeria when she arrives at KL.

But the plot just becomes bare bones at this point. The clan dynamic of the different families on the show is a big appeal imo - not getting to see any of the Dornish interact with other would take that appeal away and reduce the Martells to cardboard cutouts with nothing interesting about their characters. Furthermore it's clear that Doran's plans are going to be a huge plot point come TWOW. If we never see him how are we supposed to know about any of his schemes or care about them if their perpatrator is forever off-screen. Casual viewers need to be shown not told. The crowning subplot isn't the most plot relevant of side-stories, but it says a lot about Arianne and Doran's characters, it gives us some time with a pre-established character and it sets off the Darkstar plotline - clearly being set up for some later relevance.

And finally, Dorne is just such an exciting locale - exactly the sort D+D would love. It's full of sex, intrigue and mystery. I really doubt they'll be passing up a chance at such an exotic location.

[SM4e]

I don't see the Martells being cut (same goes for the Ironborn) to the fact that everything in GRRM's books has a meaning that influences the story. So even Quentyn's chapters made sense. Everything influences the endgame and the Ironborn and Dorne are just of too huge importance: Dorne as a supporter of the Targaryens/Blackfyres and a new political power in King's Landing. The Ironborn as an overall (sea-)danger with a ruthless leader and a viking brother weith the hugest fleet in the seven kingdoms.

Imagine both are cut:

- Oberyn's death would be meaningless for any political decisions

- Myrcella would just be gone forever (and I think Aimee Richardson has already stated that she would be back for Season 5)

- Stannis burning the leaches would have been useless, if Balon didn't die afterwards (implying that Euron/Victarion/Aeron arrive then)

- The Battle of Meereen would have to work without the Ironborn('s fleets) + Daenerys wouldn't have any boats afterwards

[Arkekansler]

I just don’t see them wasting screen time away from the pivotal characters, money and a separate shooting location (not to mention the problem this particular thread is about) only to establish the Martells family dynamic with little to no relevance plot vise.

The problem isn’t really that they introduce to many new characters but to many plotlines. Theoretically you could have any number of characters as long as they stay in the same place. This is why the first season seemed so much less jumpy and confusing. Even if we jump from Ned to Jamie where still in Kings landing and these people will most likely meet up at least in the next couple of episodes. This is more like classic storytelling and less confusing. If like you say they introduce Quentyn in Meereen, Nymeria (and possibly Tyene) in Kings landing and Arianne with Aegon they eliminate a whole separate storyline without losing to many characters. This is actually quite reminiscent of how both the show and the books so far have dealt with the Tyrells. Though the shows decision to cut the Tyrell brothers was weird to say the least I don´t think any viewer would regard Loras, Margaery and TQoT as “bare bones”.

If they really need to incorporate Dorne there´s no reason they couldn’t introduce it through Balon Swann in season 6. This would push it back a bit since Arianne and Nymeria would already have left. Or they could introduce us to the whole family and then have Doran separate them, only cutting out AFfC. Now instead of three new storylines we have one new in season 5 (Ii), one that is introduced thru Tyrion and then separates (G&yG), and one new in season 6 (basically Balon).

[SM4e]

Well, I find the entire development frankly interesting, especially Arianne's character development. Doran's Fire and Blood spech is probably one of my most favorite moments from AFFC and it shows that there are other players than Tywin, Varys and Littlefinger.

Arianne has (like everybody else around in Dorne) not a too positive opinion towards Doran after Oberyn's death and by her quick, not-considered action of crowning Myrcella she mirrors entire Dorne. We will get so much to know about Dorne in Season 4 by Oberyn and Ellaria and I think a break of an entire season would just be confusing for casual viewers since they might have forgotten Oberyn's revengeful behaviour, etc.

I'm pretty sure we will see Doran sending Quentyn + 1 companion to Meereen in order to introduce two important characters at the same time and latr show us Arianne and her companions after she had discussed with Doran before and Doran telling her that the Sandsnake will be imprisioned.

[Arkekansler]

Well, I find the entire development frankly interesting, especially Arianne's character development. Doran's Fire and Blood spech is probably one of my most favorite moments from AFFC and it shows that there are other players than Tywin, Varys and Littlefinger.

Arianne has (like everybody else around in Dorne) not a too positive opinion towards Doran after Oberyn's death and by her quick, not-considered action of crowning Myrcella she mirrors entire Dorne. We will get so much to know about Dorne in Season 4 by Oberyn and Ellaria and I think a break of an entire season would just be confusing for casual viewers since they might have forgotten Oberyn's revengeful behaviour, etc.

I'm pretty sure we will see Doran sending Quentyn + 1 companion to Meereen in order to introduce two important characters at the same time and latr show us Arianne and her companions after she had discussed with Doran before and Doran telling her that the Sandsnake will be imprisioned.

One thing I´m almost entirely sure of is that we won’t see Quentyn until he arrives in Meereen. I, unlike many, actually did enjoy he´s chapters prior to that but from a show perspective it would be really weird to include them. Also you are here suggesting a scene that’s not even in the books? That won’t happen.

I seriously doubt people will forget Oberyn in a season especially if Quentyn shows up in Meereen early in season 5.

On Arianne I might be bias since she is by far my least favorite part of the entire series. So if you could explain why I’m supposed to care about this vapid, reckless and frankly annoying character I´d be mush obliged. (And don´t say she’s hot)

[titanx5]

I think what would be best would in the beginning to establish the Greyjoy uncles, be it 2, or all 3 but no KM, and establish Euron's plans. I recon they introduce Dorne as soon as fAegon is revealed which will happen like episode 6 or so, then they include Doran, discusing with Arianne that his nephew may still be alive, thats if Quentyn is included.

I will probably get criticised by some but this is just a theory, and all depends if Arianne marries fAegon. Thus Arianne could replace Quentyn, by traveling to meet fAegon, and offer him Dorne's support,when he lands in Westeros, obviously this will mean no Dany encounter. So could result in Greyjoys backing Dany, and Dorne backing fAegon.

[Veltigar]

They should get the actor playing Jaqen back to play Pate or the Kindly Man (or both). Not very bookcannon but show only people would immediatley recognize them + Jaqen is a fan favorite. All the other characters should be extra's.

Quentyn should be introduced when Dany meets him for the first time or be cut completely.

JonCon, Septa Lemore and Faegon should best be introduced with the GC. No need for the trip itself. Just let Illyrio drop Tyrion off.

Areoh Hotah and Penny should be cut (give more time to Ian Glenn). Randyll Tarly should keep on getting namedrops but without actually introducing them.

Hyle Hunt is out as well. It's just her and Pod. Gendry should be sent to the Vale and replace Mya and some other characters (like Lothor Brune).

Indira Varma is a great actress but I think they'll only use her as an in to Dorne when she takes Oberyn's body back. They might use her in the role of the Sandsnakes in KL, but I hope they refrain from that since Elia is quite a cool character for not getting caught up in the revenge cycle.