The Others should not be the main villain.

[JLE]

I think the Others are more "elemental" than aligned to good or evil - they are the embodiment of cold, ice, darkness and death, probably in the same way that dragons are the embodiments of fire and light.

There cannot be one without the other. Perhaps the world would be better with neither extreme present, or at least neither extreme existing in a sentient (or semi-sentient) elemental form.

Also I'm of the opinion that some great "evil" was done in the past that set the balance wrong - in these kinds of fantasy tales it's often an attempt to cheat, defeat or destroy death itself. And the attempts to restore the balance either failed, or were done wrong, and will have to be re-done from the start, and done right this time. Because there must be ice as well as fire, winter as well as summer, cold as well as heat, death as well as life, and both sides must take their proper place in the natural order.

The latter "done wrong" would, of course, include the efforts of whoever is the reality behind the original myth of Azor Ahai. He did something wrong - something powerful enough to drive back the Others, postpone the reckoning, but not actually set the balance right, because it was done sufficiently wrong that it didn't just allow but *ensure* their return. (A bit like in LOTR, where getting the Ring off Sauron ensured his defeat - but Isildur keeping it for himself rather than destroying it ensured his return.)

And that's where I think the murder of Nissa Nissa by Azor Ahai figured in. I think it was the thing that was done wrong, that has to be done right this time. So the question is not "who will be (insert hero)'s Nissa Nissa" but "will (insert hero) actually recognise the right thing to do this time, or just copy the wrong one again?"

[sleath56]

The sad thing, is how many people apparently prefer a really ugly chair...

Which they should, considering it is supposed to be the main focus of the story.

I'd be very disappointed if the GOT arc gets overshadowed by this new Zombie Invasion one.

It would also be horrible writing if all the factions in Westeros suddenly started to work together and ignore their differences from the entire series.

What I think I fear, is a change to the status quo. We've had 5 entire books detailing this organic world. Shit has happened, but now everything is starting to connect.

I'd hate for the story to have a something-completely-new wench thrown in like that with the Others invading and the entire story arc being pushed to a sort of Walking Dead story or having everyone converge at the Wall to fight the Others.

Even if the Others were mentioned in the first chapter, that doesn't excuse this from being a horrible setup or bad writing. Honestly, I've always disliked the Others' part in this story. They are so foreign to the story setting we've been getting that I don't see a way we can merge them together. They have barely gotten any development and the world is already flowing out fine out of the pen without them.

At best, the Others should remain a subplot and threat of characters like Jon, the Wildlings, and maybe Stannis. They should NOT become the focus of the whole story. That is NOT called buildup, that is horrible writing to change from one subgenre to another.

[Frey family reunion]

If you believe that this book may be a subtle retelling of the Ragnarok mythos then the Others (ASOIAF version of the Ice Giants), and their Wights (the army of the dead)may just be one of several threats bearing down on Westeros, the other threats being Daenaerys and her dragons and army (Surtr and his flaming sword), the Golden Company, Dorne, the Iron Islands (IMO this threat symbolizes the Midgard Serpent which encircles Westeros), and Loki (represented by Mance Rayder and/or Baelish).

[NotSoSilentSister]

[...] And it would be a shame if the game of thrones situation was scrapped to defeat the ice zombies.

Well, the capitalist allies (eventually) teamed up with Stalin to defeat Hitler; didn't exactly mean that the whole captialism vs communism situation was scrapped now, did it?

I do think the climactic battle will be about the last forces of humanity more or less united (some Quislings in the footprints of Craster excepted) against the ice zombies, but I wouldn't worry too much about the game of thrones falling completely to the wayside because of that. Firstly, the uniting will probably be pretty much a last-minute affair and in the run-up there might be quite a few voices who'd argue for doing it the other way round - team up with the zombies against Dany (just as there were non-neglible factions in each country in favour of teaming up with Hitler against Stalin instead). Secondly, if anyone warmblooded survives this particular long night, you better believe the game of thrones will be resumed at the earliest convenience. So let's hope that whoever ends up on whatever passes for the Iron Throne in the end has a taste for courtly intrigue....

[sleath56]

Well, the capitalist allies (eventually) teamed up with Stalin to defeat Hitler; didn't exactly mean that the whole captialism vs communism situation was scrapped now, did it?

I do think the climactic battle will be about the last forces of humanity more or less united (some Quislings in the footprints of Craster excepted) against the ice zombies, but I wouldn't worry too much about the game of thrones falling completely to the wayside because of that. Firstly, the uniting will probably be pretty much a last-minute affair and in the run-up there might be quite a few voices who'd argue for doing it the other way round - team up with the zombies against Dany (just as there were non-neglible factions in each country in favour of teaming up with Hitler against Stalin instead). Secondly, if anyone warmblooded survives this particular long night, you better believe the game of thrones will be resumed at the earliest convenience. So let's hope that whoever ends up on whatever passes for the Iron Throne in the end has a taste for courtly intrigue....

Still; what is the point, I beg to ask? The uniting of humanity (and its deconstructions) is a cliche trope.

I REALLY would hate for the unique dynamic between the Houses jossed for a alien invasion story

If I wanted to read about zombies, I would watch the Walking Dead. Have the Others be a plot for characters in the North , but Gods don't them be the main threat or a major plot.

They haven't gotten a single chapter of real development all the way since GRRM wrote the prolouge back in the 90s.

[My friend Alayne Arya mad]

Which they should, considering it is supposed to be the main focus of the story.

I'd be very disappointed if the GOT arc gets overshadowed by this new Zombie Invasion one.

It would also be horrible writing if all the factions in Westeros suddenly started to work together and ignore their differences from the entire series.

What I think I fear, is a change to the status quo. We've had 5 entire books detailing this organic world. Shit has happened, but now everything is starting to connect.

I'd hate for the story to have a something-completely-new wench thrown in like that with the Others invading and the entire story arc being pushed to a sort of Walking Dead story or having everyone converge at the Wall to fight the Others.

Even if the Others were mentioned in the first chapter, that doesn't excuse this from being a horrible setup or bad writing. Honestly, I've always disliked the Others' part in this story. They are so foreign to the story setting we've been getting that I don't see a way we can merge them together. They have barely gotten any development and the world is already flowing out fine out of the pen without them.

At best, the Others should remain a subplot and threat of characters like Jon, the Wildlings, and maybe Stannis. They should NOT become the focus of the whole story. That is NOT called buildup, that is horrible writing to change from one subgenre to another.

I personally think the question of who rules westeros is the distraction. That leaves the threat of The Others as the prime conflict but maybe that's just me.

Side note: something I don't see discussed much ....wasn't it said that the wildling's search for the horn of winter released the walkers from long buried tombs or something like that?

[sleath56]

My friend Alayne Arya mad:

For being the 'prime conflict', we sure don't have much knowledge about them considering we are at book 5/7. It seems that it is less about how we are going to be 'surprised' and more like 'GRRM never intended for the Others to have such a big role when he was writing the trilogy'. No. I hardly think the main struggle of the last 5 books is a distraction compared to a (what seems for it to become) undeveloped plot arc that is just starting to rear it's unwritten head.

This isn't about who's the main threat or not; this is a complete genre change. You can't switch from a political Middle Ages-class fantasy to a medieval Independence Day-style zombie invasion. It's good to incorporate different types of genres into books, especially series, except you can't do this when the story is more over half way over (even if you think GRRM is going to make a Book 8).

[My friend Alayne Arya mad]

My friend Alayne Arya mad:

For being the 'prime conflict', we sure don't have much knowledge about them considering we are at book 5/7. It seems that it is less about how we are going to be 'surprised' and more like 'GRRM never intended for the Others to have such a big role when he was writing the trilogy'. No. I hardly think the main struggle of the last 5 books is a distraction compared to a (what seems for it to become) undeveloped plot arc that is just starting to rear it's unwritten head.

This isn't about who's the main threat or not; this is a complete genre change. You can't switch from a political Middle Ages-class fantasy to a medieval Independence Day-style zombie invasion. It's good to incorporate different types of genres into books, especially series, except you can't do this when the story is more over half way over (even if you think GRRM is going to make a Book 8).

That's just it though: we know so little about them. That gives me the impression that GRRM has been purposely waiting for some type of big reveal.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "distraction." I don't mean to imply that all the political intrigue has been unimportant. I just think telling those parts of the story was a bigger task than GRRM ever realized. The 2 books remaining gives him a lot of space to work with....they are large books. We will just have to wait and see.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Still; what is the point, I beg to ask? The uniting of humanity (and its deconstructions) is a cliche trope.

I REALLY would hate for the unique dynamic between the Houses jossed for a alien invasion story

If I wanted to read about zombies, I would watch the Walking Dead. Have the Others be a plot for characters in the North , but Gods don't them be the main threat or a major plot.

They haven't gotten a single chapter of real development all the way since GRRM wrote the prolouge back in the 90s.

Cliche? Maybe. But so is the the hidden heir to the throne of secret royal lineage and the broken man with a dark past seeking salvation in his love for a pure woman, etc. Martin likes his tropes and so far he's by no means subverting all of them.

As I said, I don't think that the Others turning out to be the last level endboss would mean that the unique dynamic between the Houses suddenly becomes irrelevant. (Actually, my entire post was about explaining why I don't think that follows).

I think the Others - or rather the long night, the endless winter they herald - will end up the ultimate threat. But only because humanity dropped the ball. So yes, the unique dynamic between the houses, the myriad nuances of human fraility explored so far, are absolutely integral to the endgame, in order to understand how it could get that far. Throughout the series there's a strong theme of institutional failure. Time and time again we see how even reasonably competent, well-intentioned inviduals (Tyrion in King's Landing, Jon at the Wall) fail because they lack institutional support. The Nightwatch, the Maesters, the King's Guard, the Small Council, the Iron Throne - all in desperate need of some kind of reform. Clearly, it's not enough to get the right person in the right position - there's something that has to be changed about the whole way things are organized. I'm not necessarily talking about modern democracy - baby steps - but something's gotta give. And that kind of change might well require a catalyst of cataclysmic proportions.

So, looking at those themes, I just don't see how the whole thing could be resolved by simply restoring some Houses and castamering others. The game of thrones is ancient and eternal, but its rules are often subject to change.(They are not always, for instance, "you win or you die"). In a large enough scheme of things, who wins any given round is often of less consequence than who manages to change the rules. (And that's largely how I see Jon's and Dany's role in the narrative - they are not necessarily victors, but game changers.)

[sleath56]

My friend Alayne Arya mad: That's just the thing. At least a great portion of the next two books will have to focus on fleshing out the Other to build up their world.. This takes away space for the Game of Thrones main story we've had for the last five.

We can already see that this idea of GRRM's of introducing new themes is working not as well as he might had hoped. (The new POV characters, for example)

The story was intended to be a trilogy and we can really see a noticeable change from ASOS to AFFC (especially if you had been following the series for the last decade and a half). Probably GRRM never really intended for the Others to be a part of the story as they are now, and only initally added them to flesh out the NW.

Anyways, the only way to find out how they are incorporated is, yes I agree, to wait. GRRM is a real shut-in when it comes to these kind of topics; so we will not find out how they work out is until ADOS is released when we are all on our deathbeds. :dunno:

I do hope that GRRM either makes them a minor plot (or just completely drops them) as I personally don't want this newcomer to push away the already established story we have.

NotSoSilentSister: This idea of ASOIAF as a treatise of sorts is one I detest. I don't think GRRM is writing this story as a discourse of autonomism and early democracy. I think it will be a insult to the story's background if somehow a republic (or a council) ends up being formed in the end to rule or govern.

The idea of the Others uniting the Westerosi is very blatant and ignores the differences between the different factions.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Well, but to me it's not a new theme at all - it has been thoroughly woven through the entire series so far, simmering in the background in places, but obvious enough in hindsight. Not just at the Wall - whatever's going on at the Citadel, whatever prompted the Faceless Men to send Jaquen, whatever suddenly made the Red Priests actually useful, whatever brought back Dany's Dragons, the countless prophecies and visions....

I'm not necessarily reading this for the woohoo either, I'll take a scene of Tyrion and Cersei sniping at each other over another shadowbaby or ice-fire-water-whatever zombie any day, but it's really hard to deny that magic is increasingly becoming a strong factor in the proceedings and it's very plausible to speculate that all these instances of rejuvenated magical forces are somehow connected. So the return of magic is definitely something that will have to be addressed and that might be difficult in the established framework of military campaigns and courtly intrigue.

I do remember reading an interview with Martin that suggested (to me) that adding the dragons was more of an afterthought. And he likes to quote Faulkner about the human heart in conflict with itself, so I actually kinda share your impression that Martin himself might be more interested in the political/interpersonal side of things. But he also said that the whole idea for the series started with a vision of the Stark kids and their direwolves in the snow, and that was a scene full of magical undertones. I would assume it was always supposed to be a fantasy, and, what's more, the kind of fantasy, where magic is an art, not a science, truly a force of the irrational.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not clamoring for 10 new point of views from the Lands of Always Winter either, learning about the Others' ideological tensions and petty infighting. Martin said we're going to spend some time there, but I don't think they'll be fleshed out in quite the same way all the other factions have been fleshed out (I don't think we're going to get an Other-POV, although we might get an Other-collaborator-Point of View at some time). I don't think it's necessary though. They might better serve their function, if they retain an aura of mystery.

[sleath56]

NotSoSilentSister: It does 'simmer in the background', and there is hindsight; however that will not excuse it for being 'something completely different'.

It takes away from the main appeal of the series; which is the political intrigue. Not Zombie Apocalypse or a dialogue of how human infighting brings together uniting against a greater enemy'.

The Others are mentioned occasionally in the books, but they themselves have no developement or world-building at all whatsoever. A great portion of the next books will be required to fill in this development. This takes time and ink away from the 'original' theme.

I agree with you that whatever we might grumble, we can only wait for the TWOW to be published to find out how it plays out.

Here's to hoping GRRM still knows what he is doing. :bowdown:

[Saint Saga]

Strongly disagree, the fantasy parts (prophecies,dragons,wargs,wights) are much more interesting than the overused political machinations.

Like in Dune,all the fantastic plots within plots,treasons and power hungry groups didn't mean shit in the end .The fight to survival is more important

[sleath56]

Saint Saga:

Thanks for you opinion, but I'd like to ask what parts of the 'overused political machinations' you disliked considering that is what 90% of the series is.

ASOIAF is low-fantasy meaning it focuses minimal magic, so it is pretty weird, with my belief, that you liked the supernatural portions of the book best.

I agree that the magic of the Stark direwolves, and the dragons are pretty neat, but I would hardly call them the highlight of the series.

I also think comparing one masterful series to another is hardly a compliment. I would be dissappointed at GRRM if he managed to follow other prominent sci-fi/fantasy series themes and plotlines.

Fighting for survival is what the Game of Thrones is all about, but if we wanted apocalyptic zombie survival, we would be extremely disappointed seeing as how the Others arc is just starting up five books in.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I doubt there really are any main villains.

The Others and Littlefinger are as close as we've gotten.

[The Mother of The Others]

Well you've got your wish! Because the Others aren't even in this series!

[Guard of the Rainking]

Saint Saga:

Thanks for you opinion, but I'd like to ask what parts of the 'overused political machinations' you disliked considering that is what 90% of the series is.

ASOIAF is low-fantasy meaning it focuses minimal magic, so it is pretty weird, with my belief, that you liked the supernatural portions of the book best.

I agree that the magic of the Stark direwolves, and the dragons are pretty neat, but I would hardly call them the highlight of the series.

I also think comparing one masterful series to another is hardly a compliment. I would be dissappointed at GRRM if he managed to follow other prominent sci-fi/fantasy series themes and plotlines.

Fighting for survival is what the Game of Thrones is all about, but if we wanted apocalyptic zombie survival, we would be extremely disappointed seeing as how the Others arc is just starting up five books in.

I agree with all your posts.

Now, that I've thought about it the Others could be a really interesting plot device. Let's say, that either Jon or Stannis gains the North and some other forces (sellswords, Riverlands, Vale...), but instead of using them to get the Iron Throne they use them defeat the Others. Now after they defeat the Others their forces are pretty spent and they don't have the strength to fight whoever has won in the south (Aegon, Euron, Dany...), and get killed by them. I dunno just something off the top of my head.

[The Holy Goat]

The Others will most likely be the big antagonists at the end, but I don't think they are as morally black as they may appear, and I don't think they will be the only antagonists. I mean, the Others were introduced as a threat in the first chapter, but they have not been alone in being antagonists. Tywin Lannister and Cersei Lannister were major antagonists in the first three books, Jaime Lannister for the first two, the likes of Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat are terrors whenever they appears, Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton and Walder Frey has been given more importance after the Red Wedding, Euron Greyjoy came out of nowhere to fuck things up, and Petyr Baelish, Varys and Illyrio Mopatis are working behind to scenes to further their own agenda.

[Winnief]

how even reasonably competent, well-intentioned inviduals (Tyrion in King's Landing, Jon at the Wall) fail because they lack institutional support. The Nightwatch, the Maesters, the King's Guard, the Small Council, the Iron Throne - all in desperate need of some kind of reform. Clearly, it's not enough to get the right person in the right position - there's something that has to be changed about the whole way things are organized. I'm not necessarily talking about modern democracy - baby steps - but something's gotta give. And that kind of change might well require a catalyst of cataclysmic proportions.

So, looking at those themes, I just don't see how the whole thing could be resolved by simply restoring some Houses and castamering others. The game of thrones is ancient and eternal, but its rules are often subject to change.(They are not always, for instance, "you win or you die"). In a large enough scheme of things, who wins any given round is often of less consequence than who manages to change the rules. (And that's largely how I see Jon's and Dany's role in the narrative - they are not necessarily victors, but game changers.)

Well said! I think ultimately, the Others are going to act as a force that dramatically changes the balance of power in Westeros, and the role of certain institutions, just as dragons have always been such game changers as well.

It's like how larger historical trends/crises have a way of massively overthrowing the established power order; the Black Plague caused huge upheaval in the social structures of Europe for instance. The blood letting in World War I contributed to the Russian revolution. So on and so forth.

[titanx5]

there has to be more to the others then meets the eye. Cause if they are just pure evil as GRRM version of orcs then people will start making out as if its almost middle earth, even though this is a drastic comparison but the NW=Gondor a shadow of its self open to attack from Sauron (WW), and in order to help defeat them, everyone would need to unite and assist them, against this tide of evil.

So hope its not a a final show down with the others vs. the realm