Balon was a joke!

[Salinda]

Balon is the most infuriatingly hypocritical character in the whole series:

1. He focused all of his bitterness on the Starks for raising Theon when other houses had wronged them in even bigger ways, like the Lannisters imprisoning Aeron in CR for a year, Stannis beating Victarion at Fair Isle, the Mallisters killing Rodrik, etc. If you think about it, Ned played no bigger part fighting the rebellion than other houses

2. Balon says no man gives him a crown, and yet he goes and offers Tywin an alliance, which was pretty much asking for permission to keep his crown. I don't believe for a minute that Balon would have attacked the Westerlands or the Reach, had Tywin refused

3. As Asha proved, the North is not only too large and difficult to hold for outsiders, but also too worthless for pillaging and raiding, compared to the more vulnerable, much closer, and far richer Westerlands

4. Only an absolute idiot would have attacked a fellow secessionist instead of building an alliance. Robb and Balon could have won had they worked together. No attack on the North means no Red Wedding. No Red Wedding means Robb doesn't retreat from the West. The northmen and ironborn could have taken most of the Westerlands and even the Reach.

I could say more, but Balon just pisses me off

I think for Balon it was about doing the least risky thing. Attacking the North while it is defenseless wins him some plunder (albeit not much) and the enmity of Robb the green boy. Attacking Lannisport or any region of the Westerlands gets him more but also gets him the scorn of Casterly Rock, which is much more of a problem.

And I think Ned taking his son hostage and making him an eternal prisoner is more wounding to his pride than anything the other houses did.

[sleath56]

I think for Balon it was about doing the least risky thing. Attacking the North while it is defenseless wins him some plunder (albeit not much) and the enmity of Robb the green boy. Attacking Lannisport or any region of the Westerlands gets him more but also gets him the scorn of Casterly Rock, which is much more of a problem.

And I think Ned taking his son hostage and making him an eternal prisoner is more wounding to his pride than anything the other houses did.

The Lannisters were basically at an all time low atthat point, though. Robb had just won the Battle of Ashemark and the army at Lannisport and is heading towards the Golden Tooth. Stannis is just preparing his Battle of Blackwater.

If Balon had attacked, not only would just looting Lannisport alone give him as much loot as his 'adventures' in the North; but he could have also starved out Casterly Rock and taken the largest gold supply in Westeros.

At that point, House Lannister would have been finished.

There would have been no reprecussions at that point.

[sleath56]

I think for Balon it was about doing the least risky thing. Attacking the North while it is defenseless wins him some plunder (albeit not much) and the enmity of Robb the green boy. Attacking Lannisport or any region of the Westerlands gets him more but also gets him the scorn of Casterly Rock, which is much more of a problem.

And I think Ned taking his son hostage and making him an eternal prisoner is more wounding to his pride than anything the other houses did.

The Lannisters were basically at an all time low at that point, though. Robb had just won the Battle of Ashemark and the army at Lannisport and is heading towards the Golden Tooth. Stannis is just preparing his Battle of Blackwater.

If Balon had attacked, not only would just looting Lannisport alone give him as much loot as his 'adventures' in the North; but he could have also starved out Casterly Rock and taken the largest gold supply in Westeros.

At that point, House Lannister would have been finished and the Iron Throne would have fallen. Balon, and Robb combined could have forced Stannis' hand to grant them independence.

There would have been no reprecussions at that point.

This is the reason why Balon is such a fail. He had the best oppurtunity he could have, gotten the Iron Islands independent and all the gold of the Rock and he ignored it for petty revenge.

[Good Guy Garlan]

The Lannisters were basically at an all time low atthat point, though. Robb had just won the Battle of Ashemark and the army at Lannisport and is heading towards the Golden Tooth. Stannis is just preparing his Battle of Blackwater.

If Balon had attacked, not only would just looting Lannisport alone give him as much loot as his 'adventures' in the North; but he could have also starved out Casterly Rock and taken the largest gold supply in Westeros.

At that point, House Lannister would have been finished.

There would have been no reprecussions at that point.

Exactly. Perfectly put

[Chaircat Meow]

The Lannisters were basically at an all time low at that point, though. Robb had just won the Battle of Ashemark and the army at Lannisport and is heading towards the Golden Tooth. Stannis is just preparing his Battle of Blackwater.

There was no battle of Ashemark. What happened is that Robb circumvented the Golden Tooth pass, unexpectedly, and came upon the lannister army at Oxcross; he took it by surprise and routed it. Then he seized Ashemark. All of this happened after Theon presented Robb's offer to Balon, and Balon had no reason whatsoever to suppose Robb would defeat Ser Stafford or even get through the hills without an assault on the castle at the Golden Tooth pass.

The lannisters were doing poorly, but that was because of Renly's approach from the south. They were otherwise not performing poorly in their war with the Starks and Tullys. The Tullys had suffered a series of crushing defeats, and the main Stark army had also been defeated. Tywin currently held the initiative as his forces were laying waste to the riverlands while Robb seemed to have no effective response, and another lannister army was in the process of being marshalled.

Finally, let's remember only the north declared independence. Whoever won in the south; Tywin, Renly or Stannis, the bannermen of the defeated claimants were likely to bend the knee. The west, as the richest kingdom claimed by the Iron Throne would not have been left to the Iron Born by the new ruler, and a southern king would possess the only fleet capable of threatening the Iron Islands. Given all of these facts there were strong reasons to carve out a kingdom not in the west, but in the north, and to negotiate for recognition of this new realm from a position of strength.

If Balon had attacked, not only would just looting Lannisport alone give him as much loot as his 'adventures' in the North; but he could have also starved out Casterly Rock and taken the largest gold supply in Westeros.

At that point, House Lannister would have been finished and the Iron Throne would have fallen. Balon, and Robb combined could have forced Stannis' hand to grant them independence.

There would have been no reprecussions at that point.

This is the reason why Balon is such a fail. He had the best oppurtunity he could have, gotten the Iron Islands independent and all the gold of the Rock and he ignored it for petty revenge.

See above.

[CaptainTheo]

I recently did up a list of the dumbest characters in 'Game of Thrones' and put Balon 4th on this list (behind only Joffrey, Rickard Karstark, and Gregor Clegane). In particular, I noted:

"Anyone with any sense would have welcomed Theon with open arms to ensure that he would be loyal to the Greyjoys and not the Starks. Balon essentially did all he could to make Theon want to stick with the Starks. Luckily for Balon, it didn’t work..."

And:

"Balon’s decision to conquer the North is also questionable given that he lost his other two sons last time he tried that. This hasn’t turned out too badly, luckily for him, because the Starks ended up getting massacred after making some mistakes of their own, and being repeatedly betrayed."

Given this, I found it hard to believe reading AFFC that Victarion had such a high opinion of Balon.

[Lee-Sensei]

Finally, let's remember only the north declared independence. Whoever won in the south; Tywin, Renly or Stannis, the bannermen of the defeated claimants were likely to bend the knee. The west, as the richest kingdom claimed by the Iron Throne would not have been left to the Iron Born by the new ruler, and a southern king would possess the only fleet capable of threatening the Iron Islands. Given all of these facts there were strong reasons to carve out a kingdom not in the west, but in the north, and to negotiate for recognition of this new realm from a position of strength.

See above.

Holding the North was a pipe dream. Even if they wouldn't be able to hold the Westerlands, I think it would have made more sense to pillage and plunder the west than the North.

[sleath56]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_of_Ashemark

The Battle of Oxcross happened after the crushing victory at the Whispering Woods where Jaime Lannister was captured along with his Lannister host. Also Oxcross occured concurrently with Robb's sending of Theon.

By the time it took for Theon to get from the Westerlands to Pyke, the Lannisters were severely losing the war on all fronts and unless the IB war intelligence was so nonexistent, Balon would have known all of this.

[Chaircat Meow]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_of_Ashemark

Not what I call a battle, but we can let the point drop. Oxcross was the important encounter.

The Battle of Oxcross happened after the crushing victory at the Whispering Woods where Jaime Lannister was captured along with his Lannister host. Also Oxcross occured concurrently with Robb's sending of Theon.

Like it or not, by the time it look for Theon to get from the Westerlands to Pyke, the Lannisters were severely losing the war on all fronts and unless the IB war intelligence was so nonexistent, Balon would have known all of this.

Like it or not your view has no basis in the facts. Theon puts it to Balon that Robb is somewhere in the hills near the Golden Tooth when he arrives at Pyke. Balon had not heard about the battle of Oxcross therefore as it had not happened, or, if it had happened, no word had been received. As Theon intended to get to Pyke sooner he would have always conceived of presenting the offer before Robb won into the west.

Therefore, it is very clearly the case that Balon was faced with the option of committing to an attack on the west before Ser Stafford's army was defeated, and when the chances of that actually occurring, based on what Theon told him, were justifiably thought to be remote. Moreover, until Robb successfully broke into the west there is no way the lannisters could be viewed as losing the war on all fronts, as they still held the initiative in the riverlands.

[Chaircat Meow]

Holding the North was a pipe dream. Even if they wouldn't be able to hold the Westerlands, I think it would have made more sense to pillage and plunder the west then the North.

Why? Balon wanted something more long lasting than a season of plunder. The only reason people think attacking the west makes sense is because posters equate 'rational action' with 'action that is good for the Starks.'

[sleath56]

Not what I call a battle, but we can let the point drop. Oxcross was the important encounter.

Like it or not your view has no basis in the facts. Theon puts it to Balon that Robb is somewhere in the hills near the Golden Tooth when he arrives at Pyke. Balon had not heard about the battle of Oxcross therefore as it had not happened, or, if it had happened, no word had been received. As Theon intended to get to Pyke sooner he would have always conceived of presenting the offer before Robb won into the west.

Ravens travel fast in ASOIAF, apparently, and so Theon did not have the intelligence that Balon does. Balon does not confirm or disavow Theon's statement or give aware with Theon about the battle. That doesn't mean he isn't aware of it.

Therefore, it is very clearly the case that Balon was faced with the option of committing to an attack on the west before Ser Stafford's army was defeated, and when the chances of that actually occurring, based on what Theon told him,

One front winning and which is surround by multiple losing fronts. Looks like a winner, this Tywin Lannister is.

[Lee-Sensei]

Why? Balon wanted something more long lasting than a season of plunder. The only reason people think attacking the west makes sense is because posters equate 'rational action' with 'action that is good for the Starks.'

Then he shouldn't have invaded the North. He was never going to conquer it and even if he did they have little of value. Did he really think Tywin would let him keep his crown, moreover when Tywin got his letter he didn't even bother to reply because Balon was already doing what he wanted him to.

No. I don't think it was the wrong choice because it was bad for the Starks. I've defended decisions that weakened House Stark many times. I think Balon's plan was stupid because it was stupid. His best hope of maintaining his indipendence was by making an alliance with the other Kingdom that was rebelling. Instead of attacking the Lannisters or Baratheons who wouldn't be okay with the Iron Islands seceding he attacks his only possible ally in the mad hope that Tywin Lannister would give him a crown.

[Jasta11]

Then he shouldn't have invaded the North. He was never going to conquer it and even if he did they have little of value. Did he really think Tywin would let him keep his crown, moreover when Tywin got his letter he didn't even bother to reply because Balon was already doing what he wanted him to.

No. I don't think it was the wrong choice because it was bad for the Starks. I've defended decisions that weakened House Stark many times. I think Balon's plan was stupid because it was stupid. His best hope of maintaining his indipendence was by making an alliance with the other Kingdom that was rebelling. Instead of attacking the Lannisters or Baratheons who wouldn't be okay with the Iron Islands seceding he attacks his only possible ally in the mad hope that Tywin Lannister would give him a crown.

Agree 100%, but you're not going to convince Hear me Meow. To him you seem to either be on his side or a foaming at the mouth Stark fanatic.

Balon's plan was, strategically, absurd. He attacked the North, thereby ensuring they hate him, then crowned himself, thereby ensuring anyone who would ever sit on the IT would want to bring him to his knees. It makes no sense at all. Not only that, but it's pretty clear he cannot hold the North. The Ironborn are master seamen, but the Kraken fares poorly on land. Well, newsflash: the North is 90% inland, anything valuable to plunder save for White Harbor is far away from Balon's designated battleground. The only action during the whole campaign that had a lasting result was Theon disobeying and taking Winterfell, and even that wouldn't have been that bad if not for circumstances completely outside Ironborn control (that being Ramsay). it seems Tywin put more thought on Balon's campaign in 5 minutes that Balon himself put in it during days of contemplating his revenge.

it's also incredibly hypocritical on his part to blame Theon for being Starkified, when he agreed to send him away after having his ass utterly kicked by those he still deems weak. I was glad to see Theon call him out on this in the show.

So yeah, in Short, Balon is a pathetic, hypocritical idiot. It may be me being biased and finding the Ironborn as a whole to be a weaksauce caricature, however. I mean, even the Dothraki are cool to an extent. The residents of the Iron Islands are full to the brim of chest-thumping bluster and all they have to show for it is the worse land on the continent and a ruling family that's either stupid or mad.

[sleath56]

Frey Pie:

Yeah, I figured Balon's actions were purely out of spite. He didn't seem to even prepare for a invasion until Theon came to him and Balon saw how 'Starkified' Theon had become.

it's also incredibly hypocritical on his part to blame Theon for being Starkified, when he agreed to send him away after having his ass utterly kicked by those he still deems weak. I was glad to see Theon call him out on this in the show.

Yes!! It's a thing now!

[MasterJack]

Didnt even bothered to read you folks, all I can say, the only things stupid Balon did was to crown himself. The North was the safest victim, whoever talk about how he should have attacked the Lannister are just pro-stark blinded by hatred.

The Lannister(the crown) still had the most theorical numbers of soldier with the Vale, Westerland, Dorne and was most likely to win than Robb in any ways, hell if the lannister win, North is done. if Renly(let dont play with timming and assume he was alive) win, North is done, if Stannis wins, North is done too.

Claiming independance was the stupidest long term plan since whoever wins is likely to turn on the North later (cant let 1 vassal crown himself, otherwise all the other will start to think "why not me?")

Why shouldnt Balon attack the North, he will be seen as a loyalist who fought the enemy of the Realm by whoever win the damn throne, even freaking Dany. They will let him keep whatever part of the North he conquered.

But this RETARD decided to crown himself and all this freaking advantage was lost.

[Lee-Sensei]

Didnt even bothered to read you folks, all I can say, the only things stupid Balon did was to crown himself. The North was the safest victim, whoever talk about how he should have attacked the Lannister are just pro-stark blinded by hatred.

The Lannister(the crown) still had the most theorical numbers of soldier with the Vale, Westerland, Dorne and was most likely to win than Robb in any ways, hell if the lannister win, North is done. if Renly(let dont play with timming and assume he was alive) win, North is done, if Stannis wins, North is done too.

Claiming independance was the stupidest long term plan since whoever wins is likely to turn on the North later (cant let 1 vassal crown himself, otherwise all the other will start to think "why not me?")

Why shouldnt Balon attack the North, he will be seen as a loyalist who fought the enemy of the Realm by whoever win the damn throne, even freaking Dany. They will let him keep whatever part of the North he conquered.

But this RETARD decided to crown himself and all this freaking advantage was lost.

The Vale was neutral and the Lannisters were grateful for that much. If they chose a side, logic would say they'd fight against the Lannisters since the Starks and Tullys are their relatives. As for Dorne, it's a well known fact that the Martells hate the Lannisters for what they did to Elia and her children. They're not going to help the Lannisters. The Tyrells were with the SL Baratheons. Stannis was against them. The Lannisters were alone.

[sleath56]

Didnt even bothered to read you folks, ...

Stopped here.

[MasterJack]

The Vale was neutral and the Lannisters were grateful for that much. If they chose a side, logic would say they'd be on against the Lannisters since the Starks and Tullys are their family. As for Dorne, it's a well known fact that the Martells hate the Lannisters for what they did to Elia and their children. They're not going to help the Lannisters. The Tyrells were with the SL Baratheons. Stannis was against them. The Lannisters were alone.

And Balon knew that all? Even if the Lannister lost, the new leader will turn on the North. So yeah it is clearly the safest victim. Or you are impliying Robb had any chance to keep his crown? All potential winner of the IT will be against Robb keeping the crown (only Renly proposed to let him keep it only as a puppet king without power, who pays taxes to the IT).

Vales was silent and could still choose either side, The Stark isnt that clear of a choice, lysa still has to act as a Arryn, the Vales isnt a Tully territory. Dornes too had a duty to help the crown, even if they just kept silent too. Tywin is way scarier and had way more accomplishment than Robb.

How can you even tell me any outsider should bet on a Stark victory.

[sleath56]

MasterJack: At the time Balon attacked, Robb just defeated the Lannisters at Whispering Woods (capture of Jaime), Oxcross and Ashemark. Tywin has been forced to march out of his campaign in the Riverlands to catch Robb as the Starks are advancing past the Golden Tooth and into the heart of the Westerlands.

Meanwhile, Stannis has taken Renly's Stormlanders and is preparing for the Battle of the Blackwater.

The moment Balon attacked the North was the lowest point of the Crown.

The host that gathered at Lannisport was ambushed and destroyed by the Starks and Lannisport is completely without garrison. The IB can just sail up Lannisport Bay like they did in the Greyjoy Rebellion and take the city. If they play it right, they could also starve out and take Casterly Rock

The Crown would have lost their fundamental base and the Tyrells would have never rallied to Tywin's forced in the Battle of Blackwater as Tywin would still be skirmishing with Robb had Robb never needed to return North for Winterfell.

[Lee-Sensei]

And Balon knew that all? Even if the Lannister lost, the new leader will turn on the North. So yeah it is clearly the safest victim. Or you are impliying Robb had any chance to keep his crown? All potential winner of the IT will be against Robb keeping the crown (only Renly proposed to let him keep it only as a puppet king without power, who pays taxes to the IT).

Vales was silent and could still choose either side, The Stark isnt that clear of a choice, lysa still has to act as a Arryn, the Vales isnt a Tully territory. Dornes too had a duty to help the crown, even if they just kept silent too. Tywin is way scarier and had way more accomplishment than Robb.

How can you even tell me any outsider should bet on a Stark victory.

Even if the Lannisters lost, the new King would turn on Balon since he declared himself King. Balon wasn't only making an enemy of the North. He was making an enemy out of everyone in Westeros.

Attacking his only possible ally was stupid. Plain and simple.

The Valelords wanted to fight against the Lanisters. Lysa publically said that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, and many of the Vale Houses are tied to the North through marriage alliances.

And were the Dornish helping the crown? No. They sat on their hands and waited. Every house had a duty to help the crown, but none of them were. The Dornish hate the Lannisters.

He couldn't have been that afraid of Tywin. In his first rebellion the first thing he did was attack the west and by declaring himsefl king he ensured that Tywin would be his enemy too.