Balon was a joke!

[Wmarshal]

The Ironborn represent the one culture in the series that I consider a truly poorly done charicature... Balon being a fairly good example of such. No other culture... even the Dothraki... really compares to the way in which the Ironborn ruin my ability to suspend disbelief.

Maybe it is my failing but as far as I see it, the equation goes like this:

Define yourself by your ability to take and to dominate + You think those land people are weak + They beat your ass and killed your sons, taking another one hostage = You are a pathetic leader and a failure and a wuss and any bluster you later exhibit is hollow

This makes me ask myself, why did the Ironborn declare for Balon again and follow his stupid plan, when their clear a society that values riches and result, something Balon proved he didn't bring the last time?

[Wmarshal]

The Ironborn represent the one culture in the series that I consider a truly poorly done charicature... Balon being a fairly good example of such. No other culture... even the Dothraki... really compares to the way in which the Ironborn ruin my ability to suspend disbelief.

Maybe it is my failing but as far as I see it, the equation goes like this:

Define yourself by your ability to take and to dominate + You think those land people are weak + They beat your ass and killed your sons, taking another one hostage = You are a pathetic leader and a failure and a wuss and any bluster you later exhibit is hollow

This makes me ask myself, why did the Ironborn declare for Balon again and follow his stupid plan, when their clear a society that values riches and result, something Balon proved he didn't bring the last time?

[Frey Pie]

Frey Pie: I don't understand what he wanted strategically from the North. It was not part of the Crown, and could not give him the independence he presumably desired. To get independence, you don't need to conquer the whole liege country and only defeat them badly enough that they accept your terms.

The Westerlands was, at the time, a vital part of the Crown, and the IB was fighting to be free of the Crown. So it boggles the mind that attacking the North (which had also declared independence) could be a sane strategic move.

As you said, keeping the North was impossible, but holding the Westerland possessions would have been entirely possible. They could've even annexed part of the Westerlands if they played their moves right.

Therefore, Balon was a incompetent commander.

Also: Oh, so they won at Lannisport? Haha, thanks. I must've confused it with something else.

No problem.

As I said I agree with you and as per the thread I linked to you I think Balons motivation behind his attack was due to the part Ned played in ending his rebellion, as well as taking and raising Theon.

Strategically it made no sense. As I said Balon needs the realm fragmented. From an outsiders persepective Robb is Balons only viable alternative for an ally but Balon should negotiate terms with Robb. Robb has formed a separatist movement, looking for independence against the very same organisation Balon does. Therefore they are natural allies. Balon attacking them strengthened his own enemies and pretty much sealed the fate of his move for independence without the host of unforseeable occurences which has kept the realm fragmented and the IB independent

It's worth noting though that had Balon attacked the west when he had the chance he could still be holding whatever he took. The realm is still fighting. Tywin is dead and no Lion has returned to the Rock. The Lannister army has been dispersed, Renly is dead and Stannis is in the North. With things the way they are Balon could have taken Lannisport and could still be holding it

[Lee-Sensei]

I just read the Theon Asha chapter and it made no sense. How do go to war with someone and not attempt to hold the most mager strong hold? If you don't force the northmen into complete submission they would just attack the shores later and gut you later just like they did the pirates.

That's the point. The Iron Born invasion of the North was doomed to fail from the beginning. They don't have the manpower or discipline to hold it. That's why Asha later admits that it was folly.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Balon was a joke, and you can see where Theon gets his doucheyiness, like father like son. Even if Vic is dumb, at least he is a badass. Asha is ok but not a big player no matter what. Euron will be trouble IMO though.

[sleath56]

Frey Pie:

Yeah, I figured Balon's actions were purely out of spite. He didn't seem to even prepare for a invasion until Theon came to him and Balon saw how 'Starkified' Theon had become.

[Lee-Sensei]

Ya the letter was terribly worded. Although when you consider he had Theon as his only intelligence on the IB, you can see how he made so many errors regarding them

The attack on the North was actually fairly sound but was never going to be permanent. Balon doesn't have the men or resources to take it properly, never mind keep it. The biggest problem I see is that Balon seems to be the overall commander yet he is a couple of hundred miles away at all times, far too far away to send reinforcements, coherent commands etc.

His goal was independence, therefore he needed to bring down the Seven Kingdoms as we know it. His strategy runs contrary to his goal, therefore is counter productive

Its worth noting though that Balon (really Vic and Euron) actually won their finest battle in Lannisport bay when they fired the Lannister fleet at anchor

I think the wording of that letter was on him. When Balon read, Theon immediately realized that he worded it wrong and tried to explain.

The only thing I'll give Balon credit for is taking Moat Cailin. He should have allied with Robb.

[Frey Pie]

I think the wording of that letter was on him. When Balon read, Theon immediately realized that he worded it wrong and tried to explain.

The only thing I'll give Balon credit for is taking Moat Cailin. He should have allied with Robb.

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. Look at Theon himself when he goes to the Islands-demanding respect just because of his name, wearing silks, wearing gold or silver he hadn't taken from a dead body etc etc. I strongly believe Theon and Robb wrote the letter together and it's only when Theon remembers who his people actually are, realises his and Robbs folly

Actually do you mean the wording was on Theon or Robb?

[Frey Pie]

Frey Pie:

Yeah, I figured Balon's actions were purely out of spite. He didn't seem to even prepare for a invasion until Theon came to him and Balon saw how 'Starkified' Theon had become.

On the contrary, he had his ships and bannermen ready to sail before Theon even arrived. He'd made up his mind before he saw Theon, and seeing Theon hardened his resolve

[sleath56]

On the contrary, he had his ships and bannermen ready to sail before Theon even arrived. He'd made up his mind before he saw Theon, and seeing Theon hardened his resolve

Wow, he's a hardy. Does it say that his initial target was the North, though? Or did he attack the North because he saw Theon?

[Lee-Sensei]

Balon was a joke, and you can see where Theon gets his doucheyiness, like father like son. Even if Vic is dumb, at least he is a badass. Asha is ok but not a big player no matter what. Euron will be trouble IMO though.

By all accounts Theon was a good kid when he went to Winterfell and he became a douche during his time their. So Balon can't be blamed for that.

[Lee-Sensei]

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. Look at Theon himself when he goes to the Islands-demanding respect just because of his name, wearing silks, wearing gold or silver he hadn't taken from a dead body etc etc. I strongly believe Theon and Robb wrote the letter together and it's only when Theon remembers who his people actually are, realises his and Robbs folly

Actually do you mean the wording was on Theon or Robb?

"Give him a crown." When Robb is talking to Catelyn after Thoen left he says the exact words. Theon arriving to the Iron Islands wearing jewelry he hadn't payed for was on him, but the wording was on Robb.

[Frey Pie]

Wow, he's a hardy. Does it say that his initial target was the North, though? Or did he attack the North because he saw Theon?

No we don't know who his initial target was but it was likely always the North

"Give him a crown." When Robb is talking to Catelyn after Thoen left he says the exact words. Theon arriving to the Iron Islands wearing jewelry he hadn't payed for was on him, but the wording was on Robb.

Were those his words? Sorry I just remember it more like let him have his crown, or something to that effect. In any case I don't think you can put the blame purely on Robb for the wording-logic dictates that Theon also had a say in it. Actually IIRC Theon read over the letter a fair few times when he was on the sea

[Lee-Sensei]

No we don't know who his initial target was but it was likely always the North

Were those his words? Sorry I just remember it more like let him have his crown, or something to that effect. In any case I don't think you can put the blame purely on Robb for the wording-logic dictates that Theon also had a say in it. Actually IIRC Theon read over the letter a fair few times when he was on the sea

Did he? Well, I doubt those were Theon's words. I don't think there's much pointing to that and it shows in the fact that those were his exact words to Catelyn. The wording was on Robb and the clothing was on Theon.

[Frey Pie]

Did he? Well, I doubt those were Theon's words. I don't think there's much pointing to that and it shows in the fact that those were his exact words to Catelyn. The wording was on Robb and the clothing was on Theon.

As far as I recall he did. Theon is Balons heir, Robbs best friend and confidante. I would be extremely surprised of Robbs emissary to the Iron Isles had no say in the letter or the plan divulged therein. It makes no sense for him not to, and plenty to the contrary. The fact that the letter was stupid isn't proof that Theon didn't have a part in the wording. Theon is Robbs only source on his father therefore I would think Robb sought his advice as Robb did with all his councillors

[Sullen]

I don't share the hate everybody seems to have for Balon, he really wasn't that bad.

He was a massive moron for not declaring for the Crown before attacking the North though.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Yep Balon was an idiot.

[Northernmonkey]

I actually kind of respect Balon for attacking the North. Yes, it was stupid, but it was also completely unpredictable and kind of clever in the way it took Robb unawares.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Balon is the most infuriatingly hypocritical character in the whole series:

1. He focused all of his bitterness on the Starks for raising Theon when other houses had wronged them in even bigger ways, like the Lannisters imprisoning Aeron in CR for a year, Stannis beating Victarion at Fair Isle, the Mallisters killing Rodrik, etc. If you think about it, Ned played no bigger part fighting the rebellion than other houses

2. Balon says no man gives him a crown, and yet he goes and offers Tywin an alliance, which was pretty much asking for permission to keep his crown. I don't believe for a minute that Balon would have attacked the Westerlands or the Reach, had Tywin refused

3. As Asha proved, the North is not only too large and difficult to hold for outsiders, but also too worthless for pillaging and raiding, compared to the more vulnerable, much closer, and far richer Westerlands

4. Only an absolute idiot would have attacked a fellow secessionist instead of building an alliance. Robb and Balon could have won had they worked together. No attack on the North means no Red Wedding. No Red Wedding means Robb doesn't retreat from the West. The northmen and ironborn could have taken most of the Westerlands and even the Reach.

I could say more, but Balon just pisses me off

[Lee-Sensei]

As far as I recall he did. Theon is Balons heir, Robbs best friend and confidante. I would be extremely surprised of Robbs emissary to the Iron Isles had no say in the letter or the plan divulged therein. It makes no sense for him not to, and plenty to the contrary. The fact that the letter was stupid isn't proof that Theon didn't have a part in the wording. Theon is Robbs only source on his father therefore I would think Robb sought his advice as Robb did with all his councillors

Do you have a quote because other wise I'm just going to have to assume it was Robb's mistake given that he was saying the same thing when Theon was far away?