Balon was a joke!

[Jasta11]

And Balon knew that all? Even if the Lannister lost, the new leader will turn on the North. So yeah it is clearly the safest victim. Or you are impliying Robb had any chance to keep his crown? All potential winner of the IT will be against Robb keeping the crown (only Renly proposed to let him keep it only as a puppet king without power, who pays taxes to the IT).

And any potential winner of the IT will also be against Balon since he crowned himself. So I don't see how this argument makes him appear less dumb. If he wanted to crown himself, he shouldn't have attacked anyone and let the civil war run its course to weaken the IT further. If all he wanted was to fuck over the Starks, he could have cut a deal with the IT before attacking (as Tywin indicates he tries after already having been of use which is fruitless). Balon wanted to do both, and they were contradictory objectives. Hence, he was stupid.

[MasterJack]

Even if the Lannisters lost, the new King would turn on Balon since he declared himself King. Balon wasn't only making an enemy of the North. He was making an enemy out of everyone in Westeros.

Attacking his only possible ally was stupid. Plain and simple.

The Valelords wanted to fight against the Lanisters. Lysa publically said that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, and many of the Vale Houses are tied to the North through marriage alliances.

And were the Dornish helping the crown? No. They sat on their hands and waited. Every house had a duty to help the crown, but none of them were. The Dornish hate the Lannisters.

He couldn't have been that afraid of Tywin. In his first rebellion the first thing he did was attack the west and by declaring himsefl king he ensured that Tywin would be his enemy too.

I think you dont understand what i said.

His only possible allies is whoever win the IT as long as Balon doesnt crown himself.

Since this retard crowned himself (as robb did) he lost this possibility. But then again there was no future with Robb, he will loose no matter what, be it in 2 month or in 10 years, the IT just need a long enough summer to get enough power and backing to retake the North. So yes I beleive you when you think he could have attacked the Lannister because since he crowned himself, he is doomed anyway. His only way for him is to gain time be helping the weakest party since a long war for the IT equal peace time for him which is Robb.

1-Balon acted stupid and crowned himself, now he has no future

2-After that YES, allying with RObb is the Best way you are 100% right

3-But my previous post was to say if he did everything he did in the story EXEPT putting a crown on his head, it would be the BEST choice.

So to make it short, crowning himself doomed him, as it doomed robb. Any move after that is just momentary satisfaction since he will be killed sooner or later by the rest of the Realm.

The ONLY way for him to have some fun loothing and killing ppl without dooming himself was to attack North without crowning himself.

That is why I dont think attacking North is stupid since he is already on the stupid highway to hell. allying with Robb would only give him time, maybe a few years + some hope to get new allies later.

The biggest mistake of Balon: crowning himself, everything else was great otherwise.

The biggest Mistake of Robb: crowning himself since Independence isnt viable in long term as long as the Other 6 kingdoms ends up ruled by the same king/queen.

Ot the make it even more simple, let asume A=crowning himself, B=not crowning himself and the letter means any other next move.

A+X+Y+Z = Stupid

B+X+Y+Z = Smart

Yes Balon was a joke but would have been a genious if he changed just 1 move.

[Lee-Sensei]

I think you dont understand what i said.

His only possible allies is whoever win the IT as long as Balon doesnt crown himself.

Since this retard crowned himself (as robb did) he lost this possibility. But then again there was no future with Robb, he will loose no matter what, be it in 2 month or in 10 years, the IT just need a long enough summer to get enough power and backing to retake the North. So yes I beleive you when you think he could have attacked the Lannister because since he crowned himself, he is doomed anyway. His only way for him is to gain time be helping the weakest party since a long war for the IT equal peace time for him which is Robb.

1-Balon acted stupid and crowned himself, now he has no future

2-After that YES, allying with RObb is the Best way you are 100% right

3-But my previous post was to say if he did everything he did in the story EXEPT putting a crown on his head, it would be the BEST choice.

So to make it short, crowning himself doomed him, as it doomed robb. Any move after that is just momentary satisfaction since he will be killed sooner or later by the rest of the Realm.

The ONLY way for him to have some fun loothing and killing ppl without dooming himself was to attack North without crowning himself.

That is why I dont think attacking North is stupid since he is already on the stupid highway to hell. allying with Robb would only give him time, maybe a few years + some hope to get new allies later.

The biggest mistake of Balon: crowning himself, everything else was great otherwise.

The biggest Mistake of Robb: crowning himself since Independence isnt viable in long term as long as the Other 6 kingdoms ends up ruled by the same king/queen.

Ot the make it even more simple, let asume A=crowning himself, B=not crowning himself and the letter means any other next move.

A+X+Y+Z = Stupid

B+X+Y+Z = Smart

Yes Balon was a joke but would have been a genious if he changed just 1 move.

Everything else wasn't great otherwise. The whole point of Balon joining the war was to gain independence. The only way for him to do that is as an ally of the North. If he was just out for revenge at least that would make sense, but he wanted independence and in trying to get it he alienated his only possible ally.

[Steelcan]

Thats why when i played as Balon Greyjoy in the CK2 ASoIaF mod I joined with the North

[sleath56]

Steelcan:

Pfft... The real challenge is playing Theon, marry Sansa/Arya, assassinating Balon for the Iron Islands and then getting a son and assassinating Robb, Bran, Rickon and their children so Theon's child becomes King of the North and the Iron Islands.

[Steelcan]

Steelcan:

Pfft... The real challenge is playing Theon, marry Sansa/Arya, assassinating Balon for the Iron Islands and then getting a son and assassinating Robb, Bran, Rickon and their children so Theon's child becomes King of the North and the Iron Islands.

They won't marry any Stark girls off to him though, he's an infidel as far as the game mechanics are concerned.

Much more fun to play as Robb, kill Balon, kill Theon, kill Roslin, marry Asha

[IRON BANK]

This... i was scratching my head at Asha's taunting. Theon took the capital. How is that not a win for every IB ever?

the IB are so short sighted. they invade the coastal areas and besides Harren. have never advanced passed the pillaging and reaving stage of conquest. If they would have focused on trade routes, they could have been the biggest merchant princes in the world.

[Steelcan]

the IB are so short sighted. they invade the coastal areas and besides Harren. have never advanced passed the pillaging and reaving stage of conquest. If they would have focused on trade routes, they could have been the biggest merchant princes in the world.

Not really, they aren't located on any good routes, Essos is around an entire continent, the Arbor, Oldtown, and Lannisport face them, but they don't have any resources to trade besides salt and iron

[MasterJack]

Everything else wasn't great otherwise. The whole point of Balon joining the war was to gain independence. The only way for him to do that is as an ally of the North. If he was just out for revenge at least that would make sense, but he wanted independence and in trying to get it he alienated his only possible ally.

It was great to gain territories and loots. and Independance as I said is just impossbile to maintaint longterm, except if you are LF mental lvl, able to manipulate politics from the shadows only to get some of the other 5 kingdoms to claim independance too. Weakening the general IT overall potential of power. Lucky for you Dorne is secretly on his way to do something close enough, but nobody knew, not even their heirest.

And I said in my last post, attacking North is stupid if you crown yourself, yes he is stupid you are right, but even with the North on his side you need a lot of external event outside your reach to happens for Independance to be a possible ending longterm.

What I meant is :If he didnt crowned himself and decided to be happy with vengence on the North + loot + territories, then everything he has done was perfect and would had made perfect senses. He gains vengence, territory and loot, gain the IT trust and possibly destroy the Stark.

[Lee-Sensei]

It was great to gain territories and loots. and Independance as I said is just impossbile to maintaint longterm, except if you are LF mental lvl, able to manipulate politics from the shadows only to get some of the other 5 kingdoms to claim independance too. Weakening the general IT overall potential of power. Lucky for you Dorne is secretly on his way to do something close enough, but nobody knew, not even their heirest.

And I said in my last post, attacking North is stupid if you crown yourself, yes he is stupid you are right, but even with the North on his side you need a lot of external event outside your reach to happens for Independance to be a possible ending longterm.

What I meant is :If he didnt crowned himself and decided to be happy with vengence on the North + loot + territories, then everything he has done was perfect and would had made perfect senses. He gains vengence, territory and loot, gain the IT trust and possibly destroy the Stark.

No. It wasn't great to gain territories and loot because they don't have the numbers to hold that territory and their's nothing much of value to loot. Like Asha said at the Kingsmoot. The North has very little to offer him.

The Tully's and the Starks declared independence. The Greyjoys' declared independence. The Martells and the Arryn's were neutral, but if they chose a side it wouldn't be the Lannisters. The Targaryens re a non-factor. The only people who would really care about them declaring independence are the Baratheons and the Lannisters. The Tyrells may still fight, but that still leaves the North and the Iron Islands in a good position.

Balon wanted indendence. He tried to gain independence by attacking his only ally. That's not what he wanted to do. You're argument is flawed because what Balon wanted was independence. He went to war and ended up with nothing. It was called folly, mad and many other things in story so why are we arguing against this?

[BarrelRoll42]

Do you have a quote because other wise I'm just going to have to assume it was Robb's mistake given that he was saying the same thing when Theon was far away?

Don't have the text on hand but Theon definitely helped write it.

[MasterJack]

He went to war and ended up with nothing. It was called folly, mad and many other things in story so why are we arguing against this?

Victrarion defended the way North just fine. I am not arguing with you, I am on your side when I think Balon acted stupid since every move he made after crowning himself was stupid.

What I am so trying to make you understand is if he kept the SAME exact battle plan but DIDNT crowned himself, all his actions that are considered stupid for good reason would have become great move. Robb would lose, someone would inherit the IT and would have no reason to go against the IB since they protected the Realm Peace. Keeping Their gained territory would have been a minimum reward for the task.

Balon would have vengence, land and some poor loot. But any piece of land in the north is great, you expand your territory with fertile® lands. For the Iron Born this is a great victory, not idependance but a good start without making any enemy except the defeated North that has now to obey the IT and his friends and rebuilt after their crushing defeat.

[Lee-Sensei]

Don't have the text on hand but Theon definitely helped write it.

Get the quote then.

What I am so trying to make you understand is if he kept the SAME exact battle plan but DIDNT crowned himself

And that's your problem. The whole point of him going to war was to declare independence. He did so in the stupidest way possible. The only thing about his rebellion that was smart was taking Moat Cailin and taking Winterfell (keeping it was dumb). And that's why in the books his rebellion is called mad and folly. Because it was a dumb idea.

[TheNinjaDC]

To be fair to Balon, the number of named Iron born that are not a joke/insane can be counted with Jamie's fingers.

[MasterJack]

Get the quote then.

And that's your problem. The whole point of him going to war was to declare independence. He did so in the stupidest way possible. The only thing about his rebellion that was smart was taking Moat Cailin and taking Winterfell (keeping it was dumb). And that's why in the books his rebellion is called mad and folly. Because it was a dumb idea.

:P that is why in a post higher I said something along the lines: "If he was happy with only gaining territory, getting vengence and gettting some loot then....."

If choice is to be immediatly independant, which it was, then yes joining Robb is his best bet, but the chance for it to last are slim.

But if he can be happy with vengence+land+loot, gaining power and territory and waiting for another chance (which is the destruction of the 7kingoms as a whole entity) then not crowning himself was stupid.

So what I think WAS stupid was thinking he could get independance in the first place, possible but unlikely in the longterm.

[Lee-Sensei]

:P that is why in a post higher I said something along the lines: "If he was happy with only gaining territory, getting vengence and gettting some loot then....."

If choice is to be immediatly independant, which it was, then yes joining Robb is his best bet, but the chance for it to last are slim.

But if he can be happy with vengence+land+loot, gaining power and territory and waiting for another chance (which is the destruction of the 7kingoms as a whole entity) then not crowning himself was stupid.

So what I think WAS stupid was thinking he could get independance in the first place, possible but unlikely in the longterm.

But he wasn't happy with that. That's not what he wanted.

And there's a good chance that if the Tullys, Starks and Greyjoys allied against the Lannisters they would be able to maintain their independence.

[IRON BANK]

Not really, they aren't located on any good routes, Essos is around an entire continent, the Arbor, Oldtown, and Lannisport face them, but they don't have any resources to trade besides salt and iron

Salt in the mid eval world was an expensive commodity, and Iron never goes out of style. Also you can explore new areas take over islands. become explorers. They have the means. You go where yor enemies are not until you become stronger. For instance Euron explored and came back with unseen riches and he is now their leader. With more organization the IB could have set this plan into motion and pulled themselves out of their current situation.

[Chaircat Meow]

Ravens travel fast in ASOIAF, apparently, and so Theon did not have the intelligence that Balon does. Balon does not confirm or disavow Theon's statement or give aware with Theon about the battle. That doesn't mean he isn't aware of it.

Sorry, Theon does not think the battle has occurred when he talks to Balon. He thinks Robb should be through the hills around the Golden Tooth. There is no reason for Balon to be aware of Robb's whereabouts at this point. Balon doesn't have spies with ravens following Robb's army. Theon is also notably optimistic in that scene. There is no indication whatsoever Oxcross has taken place, and no reason Balon would know about it if it has.

Errant Bard's timeline puts the decision of Balon to go to war in mid April and Oxcross three months later, in August.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/31411-global-timeline/

You are resting your criticism of Balon on something completely atextual and, as such, your argument is unconvincing.

[Frey Pie]

Do you have a quote because other wise I'm just going to have to assume it was Robb's mistake given that he was saying the same thing when Theon was far away?

Nope, just common sense. Really it seems quite obvious. When Stannis made up his letters he had a few lords and Maesters, as well as Davos and Mel in the court with him. I would think Robb did the same. There's also the part where Balon states that Robb says Theon speaks for him. It is highly unlikely Theon does not know what the letter says

[Frey Pie]

Why? Balon wanted something more long lasting than a season of plunder. The only reason people think attacking the west makes sense is because posters equate 'rational action' with 'action that is good for the Starks.'

I'm seeing this a lot lately and quite frankly it's a load of good old fashioned bollocks. You can't say anything about the North or Starks these days without being some stupid fanboy. I could easily say the same thing about you and the omnipotent Tywin Lannister, but I don't.

Balon attacking either the West or the North and taking land in either area would not have ended up with him gaining something more long lasting. If Robb won against the odds he has a small chance of holding parts of the west. If Tywin, Renly or Stannis won he has no chance of holding the West or the North. He wouldn't be palatable to Renly and his style and neither Stannis nor Tywin would allow a rebel King claim any land, or even a former King hold land he conquered. It was absolute spite and stupidity to attack the North

Balon screwed himself when he named himself King. He screwed himself when he attacked the North and started glueing the pieces of the fragmented realm back together again. He screwed himself when he did anything other than sitting on his hands