Torrhen Blackwood Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 You should refer to the Stormlands, because Stannis is the heir in there. All of the storm lords are sworn to him. If he has Dragonstone as a bonus then congratulations to him. Wikipedia is not canon and mines are not the only source of income. The stormlands are not a poor region. I didn't use wikipedia. I used this site's wiki, which is about as legit as it gets. However, Renly has been the Lord of Storms End since Roberts Rebellion. So those taxes and noble families were under his control, while Stannis only had Dragonstone not both. When Renly was assassinated a lot of those families joined the Tyrells/Lannisters, not Stannis. Stannis didn't hold Storms End long before the Battle of the Blackwater & then heading to the Wall, so he wasn't able to muster supplies, wealth, and manpower like Renly did. But you're right the Stormlands aren't poor but it doesn't enjoy many of the advantages the Westerlands have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Stannis, I'd say. Tywin is a very competent commander, but Stannis is a frighteningly competent commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonstoned Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I think Tywin has all the basics of warfare, strategy and tactics down, but he doesn't seem to have any flair for it like Stannis or Robb. The only slightly inventive thing we see him do is set a trap for Robb at the Green Fork but weakening his own van and trying to get Robb to overcommit, and I don't even know how inventive that really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faydra Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I didn't use wikipedia. I used this site's wiki, which is about as legit as it gets. This wiki http://awoiaf.westeros.org/ is good, but not without flaws. Stannis didn't hold Storms End long before the Battle of the Blackwater & then heading to the Wall, so he wasn't able to muster supplies, wealth, and manpower like Renly did. He held it long enough to take whatever wealth was there already. And you can't say that there wasn't any, because Renly was better at this game than Stannis. When Renly was assassinated a lot of those families joined the Tyrells/Lannisters, not Stannis. This proves exactly my point. Tywin is overall a better commander because he inspires loyalty... to more than one person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrax Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Given the OP, it's a coin toss. They are both competent commanders... but a lot of luck will be involved as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Things Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Tywin isn't a competent commander; Robb played him like a fool. He couldn't anticipate what Robb would do, didn't know his own territory properly (goat trail into Oxcross). Stannis has victories that actually count (Greyjoy Rebellion, defeating Asha, defeating a host of wildings way larger than his army). And I also had an interesting thought about the argument that using a shadow baby doesn't count as military strategy; well in that case doesn't using giants and wargs not count as military strategy either, as Mance had used them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrax Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Tywin isn't a competent commander; Robb played him like a fool. He couldn't anticipate what Robb would do... Just like Stannis couldn't anticipate what Tyrion would do. Any commander can make a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Either, it would probably come down to battlefield luck and whichever side showed a weak spot and exploited it first. Tywin seems a competent enough commander, same as Stannis. The disregard for Tywin's generalship seems very bias in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Just like Stannis couldn't anticipate what Tyrion would do. Any commander can make a mistake. No not really. No would expect a nuke-esque weapon being used against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Before you keep bashing the amazing Battle of the Wall take a look at Battle of Long Lake http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_of_Long_LakeBattle of Bridge of Skulls http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_of_the_Bridge_of_Skulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Tywin isn't a competent commander; Robb played him like a fool. He couldn't anticipate what Robb would do, didn't know his own territory properly (goat trail into Oxcross). The goat trail that nobody knew about? That's such a ridiculous criticism. Robb only found it because of deus ex wolf. And regarding Robb's movements beforehand if anything these failures of the Lannisters' fall at Jaime's feet. Had Jaime had an effective force of scouts in the field his army could have smashed Robb's small force and Roose's remnants would be left to contend both Lannister armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 I don't think anybody is underestimating Tywin's generalship, he's shown a level of competence befitting a great Lord, what we've seen from Stannis on the other hand goes above and beyond a mere level of competence. I've seen the fact that he lost so many troops at Blackwater used against him, I'd like to have seen anyone else do better, every other commander caught with a surprise attack (my lack of Oxford Dictionary understanding of the word 'ambush' bit me in the arse in this one) was either capture or killed, a large chunk of Stannis' forces switched sides, he still escaped with as many men as his ships could carry. Giants or no, Mance's host was all but defeated when Stannis rode in. Mance's best forces had already broken themselves upon the wall 3 times and we know they weren't all that formidable to begin with. Numerous yes, but very few mounted troops, junk weapons and little armor. Not to mention they were being picked off one by one by the Others from the rear the entire time, and they had no discipline, training, or cohesiveness as a military. Not to mention their camp was filled with useless mouths in an area that struggles to support its population foodwise even in ideal conditions. Stannis came with a host of hardened, disciplined Knights and various other fighting men, the majority of which were mounted if I remember correctly (completely possible that im not). Yes then had to contend with a handful of Giants, but most of Mance's host just melted away into the trees. If that's what qualifies as a great victory to you I think you're grasping at straws. Grasping at straws? I'd take the massive wildling force trained by Mance for a decent amount of time over Ser Staffords barely prepared Westermen any day. If they slunk into the trees it was because of the skill of the attack, with Stannis' intimidation tactics working brilliantly. If it was their weaknesses that caused them to break, it was because their weaknesses were effectively exploited. The only arguments against Stannis' ability are usually chalked up to nonsense regarding his opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrax Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 No not really. No would expect a nuke-esque weapon being used against you. Not sure what you mean. Wildfire is a commonly known substance, not a superweapon no one had seen before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Not sure what you mean. Wildfire is a commonly known substance, not a superweapon no one had seen before.Yes it is a super-weapon. Provide instances of Wildfire being used in a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Yes it is a super-weapon. Provide instances of Wildfire being used in a battle. Davos even states that they expected wildfire when the first pots are launched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Davos even states that they expected wildfire when the first pots are launched. Davos? Can you please provide the quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Davos? Can you please provide the quote?"Still, Ser Imry had warned them to expect a taste of the alchemists’ vile substance. Fortunately, there were few true pyromancers left. They will soon run out, Ser Imry had assured them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrich Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 They expected wildfire, but no one could expect ships loaded with it, which were going to explode. To be honest, even if Imry decided to send scouts, it wouldn't do much change. Also, no one knew that there was so much wildfire in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 They expected wildfire, but no one could expect ships loaded with it, which were going to explode. To be honest, even if Imry decided to send scouts, it wouldn't do much change. Also, no one knew that there was so much wildfire in KL. and that it would work better than usual because dragons were born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 They expected wildfire, but no one could expect ships loaded with it, which were going to explode. "Directly ahead, drifting toward her and swinging around to present a tempting plump target, was one of the Lannister hulks, floating low in the water. Slow green blood was leaking out between her boards." Maybe, maybe not. The scouts could have seen that and reported it, what's more important regarding scouts is the chain and towers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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