Bronn Urgandy Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Tywin showed he had a excellent aptitude for strategy in the war of the five kings, far surpassing anything we've ever seen from Stannis. Getting outmanouvred by a 16 year old Robb Stark, a considered incompetent Edmure Tully and being bailed out by Tyrions alliance with the Tyrells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Getting outmanouvred by a 16 year old Robb Stark, a considered incompetent Edmure Tully and being bailed out by Tyrions alliance with the Tyrells? Tywin's decisions were actually consistently the correct ones if you think them through. Advancing to meet Robb as opposed to remaining at the crossroads would have paid off 4/5 of the time. Same goes for the remain at HH and burn the riverlands decision. Stannis was behaving like a madman at the start, dooming his army at SE on the word of Mel, and failing to spot a monstrous army approaching his flank because he neglected to replace his scouts. I think he's a good general, btw, but he didn't distinguish himself in the WoTFK. Why is accepting Tyrell help a bad thing either ... It won the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 The luckiest. Battles are never decided by generalship alone, so it's a foolish question. If the question is, who is a better general then Tywin. He has a superior strategic mind to Stannis. Tactically it's harder to judge. On the basis of what we've seen though, Tywin seems a better general than Stannis, although they are both good.I highly disagree. Tywin is as dumb as you could be tactically. If he wins its only because an incredible chain of lucky, odd, and random events he could not forseen as a commander. As:a) Lysa Arryn, who almost killed the imp was a LF puppet and didnt join the war with 30k men.b ) Stannis pulls out a shadow baby assasini, killing Renly and spliting his undefeatable numbers.c) Tyron results an awsome commander with all kind of tricks to hold Stannis enough for him to reach the city.d) Edmure puts a strong defence cutting his retourn to the westerlands....and Robb.See? None of those events are controlled by Tywin. All of them are the least probably scenario, and all of them needed to happen at the same time for him to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I highly disagree. Tywin is as dumb as you could be tactically. If he wins its only because an incredible chain of lucky, odd, and random events he could not forseen as a commander. As: a) Lysa Arryn, who almost killed the imp was a LF puppet and didnt join the war with 30k men. B) Stannis pulls out a shadow baby assasini, killing Renly and spliting his undefeatable numbers. c) Tyron results an awsome commander with all kind of tricks to hold Stannis enough for him to reach the city. d) Edmure puts a strong defence cutting his retourn to the westerlands....and Robb. See? None of those events are controlled by Tywin. All of them are the least probably scenario, and all of them needed to happen at the same time for him to win. This is a senseless post, but about what I would expect on this type of thread. Dream on. Stannis only got anywhere because a fricking witch erroneously thinks he is important. If that's not luck, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davos's Missing Fingers Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 This is a senseless post, but about what I would expect on this type of thread.Dream on.Stannis only got anywhere because a fricking witch erroneously thinks he is important. If that's not luck, I don't know what is. Yup, as per usual, this is how the thread goes. Stannis is a genius for using black magic and somehow gets a pass for getting crushed at the Blackwater. He's a genius for defeating a ton of unorganized, undisciplined wildlings with weapons made from trees, yet he wouldn't even have gone there if not for Davos. What was he doing instead? Sitting around moping on Dragonstone, toying with the idea of sacrificing an innocent child to try to raise a dragon out of some rock. Get bent, Stannis. I can't wait until he dies. It'll be an even sweeter death than when Cersei goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Yup, as per usual, this is how the thread goes. Stannis is a genius for using black magic and somehow gets a pass for getting crushed at the Blackwater. He's a genius for defeating a ton of unorganized, undisciplined wildlings with weapons made from trees, yet he wouldn't even have gone there if not for Davos. What was he doing instead? Sitting around moping on Dragonstone, toying with the idea of sacrificing an innocent child to try to raise a dragon out of some rock. Get bent, Stannis. I can't wait until he dies. It'll be an even sweeter death than when Cersei goes down.When Artos Starks defeated a wilding force with no gigants and mamouths, and with better numbers than Stannis he was named "the implacable" altough northeners suffered heavy losses including the Lord of Winterfell...but when Stannis gets a flawless victory he earns that kind of comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Yup, as per usual, this is how the thread goes. Stannis is a genius for using black magic and somehow gets a pass for getting crushed at the Blackwater. No one is giving him a freepass, quit it with Strawman argument. He's a genius for defeating a ton of unorganized, undisciplined wildlings with weapons made from trees. Wait, wut? If you think it was not a genius victory then you have simply got it wrong. Even his some detractors here agree it was great/good win. Yet he wouldn't even have gone there if not for Davos. What was he doing instead? Isn't that point of having advisor? Now people have problem with him listening to Davos, he cannot win, now can he? Get bent, Stannis. I can't wait until he dies. It'll be an even sweeter death than when Cersei goes down. :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Yup, as per usual, this is how the thread goes. Stannis is a genius for using black magic and somehow gets a pass for getting crushed at the Blackwater. He's a genius for defeating a ton of unorganized, undisciplined wildlings with weapons made from trees, yet he wouldn't even have gone there if not for Davos. What was he doing instead? Sitting around moping on Dragonstone, toying with the idea of sacrificing an innocent child to try to raise a dragon out of some rock. Get bent, Stannis. I can't wait until he dies. It'll be an even sweeter death than when Cersei goes down. Holy shit, man. That's harsh. I agree that the victory against the wildlings isn't anywhere as impressive as most people make it out to be, but you're being to the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 There is nothing wrong with taking every single advantage you possibly have in war. So there is nothing wrong with Stannis using his armored cavalry against undisciplined wildlings (really the ideal target for cavalry). But with that said the OPs premise is problematic because nobody would fight a fair fight war. Stannis would have sent shadowbabies on Tywin, and Tywin would have gathered more forces before attacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81945-edmure-tully-and-the-battle-of-the-red-fork/ Here is a thread that is a bit relevant to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the fallen Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Stannis without a doubt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Tywin's decisions were actually consistently the correct ones if you think them through. Advancing to meet Robb as opposed to remaining at the crossroads would have paid off 4/5 of the time. Same goes for the remain at HH and burn the riverlands decision.Stannis was behaving like a madman at the start, dooming his army at SE on the word of Mel, and failing to spot a monstrous army approaching his flank because he neglected to replace his scouts. I think he's a good general, btw, but he didn't distinguish himself in the WoTFK.Why is accepting Tyrell help a bad thing either ... It won the war. Tywin sounds like a competent general who realised he was outclassed and resorted to the Red Wedding, not that I am holding that against him. The Tyrell help isn't bad, it wasn't his stroke was my point. He's a better politician than general. I don't think we've ever seen Stannis outclassed, he sent men to take the Tyrells to his side but they failed, but even so, if he'd taken the City he'd have the cards. With Stannis we've seen or heard of him fighting in situations where he should've been outclassed and won (Fair Isle) and outnumbered and won (the Wall) and even with the monstrous, unexpected ambush at Blackwater he was able to arrange an orderly retreat, saving himself and many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 If the question is, who is a better general then Tywin. He has a superior strategic mind to Stannis. Tactically it's harder to judge. On the basis of what we've seen though, Tywin seems a better general than Stannis, although they are both good. Oh, please tell me more about Tywin's strategic brilliance. Start by pointing out which battles he won, as a sole commander. Tarly beat Robert. Robert being a genious commander and leading a massively superior army... Yes, that was sarcasm. Randyll Tarly failed at the Battle of Ashford. Yes, he won the battle, but he lost the war because he let Robert retreat and escape north. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean he's not a good commander. I'd say he is close to Stannis' league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrhen Blackwood Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Stannis wins this all day. Tywin is far better at political maneuvering and the game of thrones. But Tywin has never been a underdog for a day in his life. Tywin has always enjoyed the far superior advantages of the wealth of Casterly Rock and the military power of the Westerlands (the strongholds & the noble families). Sure, he beat Stannis at the Battle of Blackwater. But he did so with a surprise attack in the rear after Tyrion had done the dirty work with wildfire and frontal assaults. Stannis has always been the underdog yet finds a way to grind it out through his will and intelligence. Stannis has the far better military mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Tywin sounds like a competent general who realised he was outclassed and resorted to the Red Wedding, not that I am holding that against him. The Tyrell help isn't bad, it wasn't his stroke was my point. He's a better politician than general.No, not really. Tywin is not an idiot. He, like any general whose reason isn't clouded by vainglory, knows that battles are inherently unpredictable and so it is better to defeat the enemy without having to resort to one. His remarks on Robb were right: Robb was a good enough general that he might be able to claw back the advantage if given the chance. Tywin is actually just as good a general as he is a politician. His political successes are due to the more favourable conditions that came about after Blackwater. His position in GoT and CoK was simply very difficult; overall he was massively outnumbered and needed to defend both the west and east. I don't think we've ever seen Stannis outclassed, he sent men to take the Tyrells to his side but they failed, but even so, if he'd taken the City he'd have the cards. With Stannis we've seen or heard of him fighting in situations where he should've been outclassed and won (Fair Isle) and outnumbered and won (the Wall) and even with the monstrous, unexpected ambush at Blackwater he was able to arrange an orderly retreat, saving himself and many others.I have no idea what you mean. Stannis was won some battles and lost others. He hasn't always faced amazing opponents (Mace and Vic) so the fact he wasn't outclassed, or whatever, isn't hugely surprising. Yea, he'd have taken King's Landing if it wasn't relieved. Tyrion made a few mistakes and got unlucky. Stannis might only have attacked the city because he had another shadowbaby in his back pocket, so the fact he had a seemingly clear run might not be to his credit. Also, Stannis would have been resoundingly defeated by Roose Bolton were it not for the chance escape of Alys Karstark in the north. Come on. This is fantasy and fanboyism. Stannis is a good general, but he isn't part of some masterclass based on anything we've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 But Robb was King and thus could dictate his political situation, so it is his fault.I believe we are talking about battlefield command in this thread, hence why most people are saying Stannis and not the politically adept Tywin How were Robb's opponents any tougher than Randyll's?Tarly beat Robert.In an inconclusive battle. Robert was moving northward towards his allies and Tarly caught up to him. Robert got away and it seems much of his force filtered back to the Stormlands. Robb defeated two armies which outnumbered him by quite a margin. Jaimes was as well armed and armoured as any force in Westeros. If he completely demolished Robert I would agree with you but he didn't and the battle he won at Duskendale is anything but spectacular Kevan specifically mentions Randyll Tarly as the one best suited to winning the war. There are other options, but his name gets chosen, particularly because he's a fantastic battle commander. I've written it out before, but I'm largely unimpressed by Stannis's battle commander prowess so far in the series. Melisandre has done the heavy lifting for him. I think Tarly would beat him with 1500 men of his own.Because he's a great soldier. Some of the finest soldiers in the world were awful commanders. Now Randyll isn't an awful commander but he is not spectacular. He's solid Tywin's decisions were actually consistently the correct ones if you think them through. Advancing to meet Robb as opposed to remaining at the crossroads would have paid off 4/5 of the time. Same goes for the remain at HH and burn the riverlands decision.Stannis was behaving like a madman at the start, dooming his army at SE on the word of Mel, and failing to spot a monstrous army approaching his flank because he neglected to replace his scouts. I think he's a good general, btw, but he didn't distinguish himself in the WoTFK.Why is accepting Tyrell help a bad thing either ... It won the war.I agree with most on this, but what about his decision to leave Harrenal when Robb was in the West? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Because he's a great soldier. Some of the finest soldiers in the world were awful commanders. Now Randyll isn't an awful commander but he is not spectacular. He's solid.His reputation says otherwise. He is definitely top tier. You can't have a discussion about best commanders without including him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 He's who I dream about at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 He's who I dream about at night.Who is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Sam's pops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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