Heresy 92 and nae deid yet

[Tyryan Lannister]

True. However, I think there's reason to believe there's something special about the Hightowers besides the name.

For instance, consider that an 800-foot tower made of stone is not the easiest thing in the world to build. It would seem to require extraordinarily advanced skill in architecture.

Yet it is not a recent building at all. It is in fact one of the oldest buildings in the entire continent. Quite the contradiction, this...

Then, too, we have the fact that the unusually ancient Hightowers seem always to have had such advanced knowledge, judging by the fact that they apparently founded the Citadel, or at least played a key role.

Do their words "we light the way" signify more than just the tower? I daresay.

I could go on... it is a matter that could be relevant to timeline considerations, let's say.

Completely agree. And when you also take into account that Lord Hightower has essentially locked himself inside the tower with his known to be magically aligned daughter for the last decade, things get very interesting indeed. Really looking forward to Sam chapters just to figure out what Hightower has been doing

[Tyryan Lannister]

And, with the launch of the season 4 preview last night, it seems that the forums are getting heavy traffic, so good luck getting on today.

For those who haven't yet seen the preview, Martin posted it on his Not A Blog http://grrm.livejournal.com/356235.html

[King of Winters]

Well the Pact made peace between the FM and the Children, meaning the FM could no longer make war on the Children not that they couldn't continue to fight among themselves. Feuding between house/clans for better lands, titles and positions would not violate a Pact with the Children, just so long as the FM didn't destroy the Children's trees and homes then killing themselves off would be fine.

Thinking about it now, is it possble for some interrace marriages between the FM and COTF? There's a theory that Bran the Builder was a COTF, but could he just have been descended from a union of the two bloods?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Thinking about it now, is it possble for some interrace marriages between the FM and COTF? There's a theory that Bran the Builder was a COTF, but could he just have been descended from a union of the two bloods?

We simply don't know if interracial marriage is physically possible in Martin's world/ It is seemingly implied in the phrase "the First Men of the Neck grew close to the Children" and by the story of the Night's King, but we don't know if this aspect (for either group) is true or even physically possible. My feeling is that it is, but we currently don't know for sure.

[King of Winters]

We simply don't know if interracial marriage is physically possible in Martin's world/ It is seemingly implied in the phrase "the First Men of the Neck grew close to the Children" and by the story of the Night's King, but we don't know if this aspect (for either group) is true or even physically possible. My feeling is that it is, but we currently don't know for sure.

I'd be surprised if there wasn't some form interracial marriages, and descendants, as they did accept the COTF's gods and respected them. But as you say, we can't be sure.

[Black Crow]

He would indeed.

Just as well he's lost and gone forever ... :cool4:

[Black Crow]

I'm still having problems with the Cailin dating. Let's assume Tyrion is correct and the Children's Tower or Cailin was built on a fairy mound after the Hammer. This would place the building at the time of the Pact on Gods Eye.

:o

I'll be covering some of this in the upcoming Winterfell essay, but what I would say at this point is that castles evolve. Bran the Builder's Winterfell will have looked very different from the present one.

There is however a big problem here with the timelines which seemingly hasn't been picked up.

According to legend Bran the Builder built Winterfell. We've got nothing to suggest that's not true other than GRRM's remark about how he may never existed, but we'll leave that aside here, Bran recalls that he built Winterfell, and some said the Wall, clearly implying that he's dubious about the Wall.

Now lets turn to Winterfell. In the very first Catelyn chapter its mentioned Winterfell is 10,000 years old. So if Bran the Builder raised it, he couldn't have raised the Wall as well all of 2,000 years later according to the conventional timeline.

[Black Crow]

Thinking about it now, is it possble for some interrace marriages between the FM and COTF? There's a theory that Bran the Builder was a COTF, but could he just have been descended from a union of the two bloods?

In some ways its an attractive theory which I considered myself, but then discarded because in one of the extracts from the World Book there's an allusion to a story of how Bran learned the speech of the Children.

[Urrax2]

In some ways its an attractive theory which I considered myself, but then discarded because in one of the extracts from the World Book there's an allusion to a story of how Bran learned the speech of the Children.

Yes, it said a ballad told how he sought their aid in raising the Wall, was taken to a secret place to meet with them, could not at first understand their speech, and how he learned to do so is, it says, a tale in itself.

[theREALjonsnow]

We simply don't know if interracial marriage is physically possible in Martin's world/ It is seemingly implied in the phrase "the First Men of the Neck grew close to the Children" and by the story of the Night's King, but we don't know if this aspect (for either group) is true or even physically possible. My feeling is that it is, but we currently don't know for sure.

i also feel it is implied with the tale of Jenny of Oldstones and the woods witch of High Heart.

play my Jenny's song... is there another?

[King of Winters]

In some ways its an attractive theory which I considered myself, but then discarded because in one of the extracts from the World Book there's an allusion to a story of how Bran learned the speech of the Children.

Oh, I rather liked that theory, but could he still have COTF blood in him, but not able to speak their language? It's possible.

I still think that the reason FM can warg, skinchange and be a Greenseer is because of COTF blood that's been in their blood since the Pact.

[Black Crow]

Yes, it said a ballad told how he sought their aid in raising the Wall, was taken to a secret place to meet with them, could not at first understand their speech, and how he learned to do so is, it says, a tale in itself.

But if Winterfell was raised Ten thousand years ago...?

[JNR]

Well the Pact made peace between the FM and the Children, meaning the FM could no longer make war on the Children not that they couldn't continue to fight among themselves. Feuding between house/clans for better lands, titles and positions would not violate a Pact with the Children, just so long as the FM didn't destroy the Children's trees and homes then killing themselves off would be fine.

Very well said.

[JNR]

But if Winterfell was raised Ten thousand years ago...?

That passage, if I recall, is a bit ambiguous. It says something like the godswood existed for ten thousand years as the castle rose around it.

That could be read to mean "the castle took ten thousand years to be fully built" or "the godswood was around for thousands of years before any building by men happened."

Next page, however, is much less ambiguous, as Catelyn thinks the godswood saw "Brandon the Builder set the first stone."

My own admittedly hazy guess is that there was a Brandon the Builder... that Winterfell dates from the rough timeframe of the Long Night and so is significantly newer to the world than 10K years... that Brandon the Builder was more involved in Winterfell than the Wall... and he was not at all involved in Storm's End, which I believe for other reasons predates both the Wall and Winterfell.

That Winterfell has been sacked and will need rebuilding by somebody is, perhaps, another clue that our Bran will ultimately play a similar role.

[King of Winters]

That passage, if I recall, is a bit ambiguous. It says something like the godswood existed for ten thousand years as the castle rose around it.

That could be read to mean "the castle took ten thousand years to be fully built" or "the godswood was around for thousands of years before any building by men happened."

Next page, however, is much less ambiguous, as Catelyn thinks the godswood saw "Brandon the Builder set the first stone."

My own admittedly hazy guess is that there was a Brandon the Builder... that Winterfell dates from the rough timeframe of the Long Night and so is significantly newer to the world than 10K years... that Brandon the Builder was more involved in Winterfell than the Wall... and he was not at all involved in Storm's End, which I believe for other reasons predates both the Wall and Winterfell.

That Winterfell has been sacked and will need rebuilding by somebody is, perhaps, another clue that our Bran will ultimately play a similar role.

I thought there was some doubt as to whether it was the first Bran to build Winterfell or not, from one character.

[theREALjonsnow]

But if Winterfell was raised Ten thousand years ago...?

" My house goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days, he said." AFFC The Queensmaker 21

He was the Sword of the Morning. He is dead. Are you Sword of the Morning now? no, men call me Darkstar and I am of the night." AFFC The Queenmaker 21

i would say if Winterfell was raised by Brandon of House Stark 10,000 years ago in the north then so was House Dayne of Starfell by The Sword of the Morning in dorne...

[Urrax2]

" My house goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days, he said." AFFC The Queensmaker 21

He was the Sword of the Morning. He is dead. Are you Sword of the Morning now? no, men call me Darkstar and I am of the night." AFFC The Queenmaker 21...

What character(s) is/are making these statements?

[Black Crow]

That passage, if I recall, is a bit ambiguous. It says something like the godswood existed for ten thousand years as the castle rose around it.

That could be read to mean "the castle took ten thousand years to be fully built" or "the godswood was around for thousands of years before any building by men happened."

Next page, however, is much less ambiguous, as Catelyn thinks the godswood saw "Brandon the Builder set the first stone."

My own admittedly hazy guess is that there was a Brandon the Builder... that Winterfell dates from the rough timeframe of the Long Night and so is significantly newer to the world than 10K years... that Brandon the Builder was more involved in Winterfell than the Wall... and he was not at all involved in Storm's End, which I believe for other reasons predates both the Wall and Winterfell.

It gets even better. Having waxed poetic about the ten thousand years, we then learn that one thousand years of humous lie around the trees...

But seriously, yes I'm for Bran the Builder raising Winterfell, but not the Wall.

[Urrax2]

It gets even better. Having waxed poetic about the ten thousand years, we then learn that one thousand years of humous lie around the trees...

But seriously, yes I'm for Bran the Builder raising Winterfell, but not the Wall.

So the ballad about his seeking the CotF out, and the story of his learning their language, are complete myth?

[Black Crow]

Probably:

Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.