Heresy 92 and nae deid yet

[Black Crow]

I have to disagree with Tyryan on Moat Cailin.

I don't think the CotF did something there before it was built, simply because it would have been impossible to move the huge basalt blocks through the bogs.

Crackpot: Moat Cailin was the original home of what is now the White Walkers, who got driven North by the CotF as the CotF were driven North themstlves.

I thought Moat Caillin was at the top (north end) of the causeway and that would-be invaders had to either stick to the causeway or sink in the bogs trying to get to it? In either event its clearly modelled on Scotland's neck other than to move Stirling Castle from the south end to the north end of the causeway - originally built by the Romans as it happens.

I think that the description of Moat Caillin clearly suggests a lot of the damage is down to damp and subsidence arising out of it being built on the edge of a bog, but especially with the causeway in place it shouldn't have been that difficult to move stone to the site - and certainly a lot easier than building a 300 mile wall of ice.

[Black Crow]

i thought this was hersey? in my opinion the timeline is not all that important. above the neck old gods, in the neck old gods, first house on the other side of the neck House Frey is a Andal conversion. guest right broken rat cook against andal king and the guest right broken against the king of north by a andal follower

that was where i was going with that

Ah, in that case you're missing the point. The timelines are very important in establishing who did what to who and when. GRRM undoubtedly has his own set of timelines providing a framework for the books and there appear to be significant gaps and discrepancies in what we've been told. The Nights King may simply be a ghost story, but if it is moved forward to the Andal period and tied into the flight of the Old Races beyond the Wall it then becomes much more significant. Similarly a possible connection between the Azor Ahai story and the "darkness" of the Valyrian empire. Some of the speculation may be off, or at best following a blind alley, but that's why we're looking into it.

[Black Crow]

75 posts in and here is what I'm gathering:

1. I'll need to recap a special addendum on the "Andal's Landing" to fill in the gap between 1,000 and 6,000 years before Aegon. It will need to include Artys Arryn's landing, The Sisters and White Harbor. I'll need at least 36 hours to do this.

A very nice thought by tyryan on Moat Cailin and the COTF (perhpas, a chicken versus the egg scenario).

We have two missing persons: AtS and one Mistress of Whispers (a.k.a. LIttle Wing).

Here is a class assignment for those seeking extra credit. Tyryan sort of beat me to the punch on the (4) supposedly pacts. The community is encouraged to review tyryan's post #26 for details on the four pacts and offer you input on when these items actually occurred. NOTE: they are (4) supposedly pacts. Don't feel completted to time stamp one if you don't feel that it ever existed.

Just as a general observation on this whole timeline business I think that any summing up has to begin with Hoster Blackwood:

Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.

I have a strong suspicion that a lot of this talk about 10,000 years ago or 8,000 years ago - or even 5,000 years ago is not literal but the Westerosi version of 1189.

[JNR]

At the end, it's hard to say for the names, cause it seems that Martin did not necessarily follow a template (that or he hasn't revealed a fully flushed out version of FM vs Andal histories for a lot of the supposedly Andal families) :dunno:

True. However, I think there's reason to believe there's something special about the Hightowers besides the name.

For instance, consider that an 800-foot tower made of stone is not the easiest thing in the world to build. It would seem to require extraordinarily advanced skill in architecture.

Yet it is not a recent building at all. It is in fact one of the oldest buildings in the entire continent. Quite the contradiction, this...

Then, too, we have the fact that the unusually ancient Hightowers seem always to have had such advanced knowledge, judging by the fact that they apparently founded the Citadel, or at least played a key role.

Do their words "we light the way" signify more than just the tower? I daresay.

I could go on... it is a matter that could be relevant to timeline considerations, let's say.

[JNR]

Also, if anyone has a link to the interview (or the citation of the text) that shows the Valyrians pressured the Rhoynar who pressured the Andals, and that's the major reason for the Andal invasion of Westeros, I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

[theREALjonsnow]

Ah, in that case you're missing the point. The timelines are very important in establishing who did what to who and when. GRRM undoubtedly has his own set of timelines providing a framework for the books and there appear to be significant gaps and discrepancies in what we've been told. The Nights King may simply be a ghost story, but if it is moved forward to the Andal period and tied into the flight of the Old Races beyond the Wall it then becomes much more significant. Similarly a possible connection between the Azor Ahai story and the "darkness" of the Valyrian empire. Some of the speculation may be off, or at best following a blind alley, but that's why we're looking into it.

i don't think i am missing any point. what is the relevance or importance to the creation of house frey 500-700 years ago in regards to the GRRM timeline of the south being colonized by the andals (something that took place thousands of years ago)?

i believe the story of the Andal king at the Night Fort and the Rat cook is directly comparable to house frey and a king getting killed in violation of guest right (old gods vs. andals) timeline not needed

the only people jojen mentions to bran that are dead in the bog are knights who Ironmen and Andal and Frey...that is the connection i pay attention too

[Varmyr]

If AtS were still around, I imagine he would chuckle at GRRM telling us he has used unreliable narration at least twice with this character alone.

He would indeed.

[theREALjonsnow]

here is my timeline for why the grey kings of old wyk and the drowned god invented the andal faith of the seven religion:

1000 years before the andals took the iron islands the grey king had already killed nagga and sacrificed the 44 weirwood trees on old wyk, so that massacre took place before high heart 31 which the andals take credit for. if the andals arrived thousands of years ago that means, hugor hill who invented the faith of the seven predates the invasion of westeros.

now take into account that his prophecy mentions 44 sons and the warrior giving him iron then when we have a direct connection to the ironborn and house greyiron sailing the ancient first men seas with the drowned god trying to duplicate the slaughter of weirwood groves like on old wyk. a family of 7 arriving in essos because the arm of dorne had been shattered and got stuck on the rhoyne on accident and got stranded. also they taught the valyrians how to make dragons and force out the nymeria.

[LynnS]

Also some sort of fire god, taking clues from the Burned Men in the Vale.

Yes, I wonder about this as well. There is the story of the Shrouded Lord from ADWD. He is referred to as the fire lord at one point in Tyrion's POV. I'm still digging around for it. This is another instance where we see something like the hammer of the water. While being drowned in a golden cage; he calls for the Mother (Rhoyne) to aid him. Earthquakes and floods follow. Now called the Prince of Sorrows or the Grey Grace; the Sorrows and the Stone Bridge is a leper colony full of stone men. If you can make the Prince of Sorrows laugh, he may grant you a boon and place you in his stony court. Tyrion fears his "grey kiss".

There is a connection here somewhere with the Starks and the wights. Ned Starks eyes are described as dark grey soft as grey mist or hard as stone. The dead Lords of Winterfell reside in a stony court; Ned uses Ice, his smoky grey sword to give the "grey kiss". Was there ever a Prince as sorrowful as Ned Stark? Winterfell is now a place of grey mists.

Why do the HBO producers show the roots of the weirwood entwined with the kraken's arms in the long hall at Winterfell and why is the direwolf banner covered in scales like a dragon's egg? Yes, I know it's the show but it's a conscious choice.

At one point the Targaryens are also referred to as Storm Lords during a more recent battle with the Valyrians across the sea. This is where I wish I had an e-book version. Sigh. Are these things mistakes or is this another case of Lion's Paw/Lion's Tooth? Is the Shrouded Lord the original "Drowned God" and a fire lord to boot? Was the Arm of Dorne smashed to stop the plague? Is this what the Andals feared? Do they have a memory of a previous "hammer of the water"? Catelyn says that the last of the weirwoods in the South were cut down a thousand years ago.

[Dagda]

because future generations of settled andals, with somewhat peaceful ideas of knights and do-gooding trekked north to visit the wall with an Andal King at somepoint on a sight seeing mission. they were no longer a threat or became sacred/respect of the power of the old gods

The Andals are never respectful to the old gods. Even when Jon takes the black going to the gods wood seems like an imposition.

[Melifeather]

I think it's wrong to keep saying there were two "hammers". There was only one Hammer used and it was on the Neck. The Children made the seas rise to sweep away the Arm of Dorne, and called down the Hammer of the Waters on the Neck. I think it would be helpful to think of the Arm of Dorne being swept by a tsunami wave. Whereas calling down a Hammer implies an impact, probably a comet made of ice.

[Dagda]

No, the Hammer was used to create the Neck in an unsuccessful attempt to cut Westeros in two. The castle, legends notwithstanding, came later

I'm still having problems with the Cailin dating. Let's assume Tyrion is correct and the Children's Tower or Cailin was built on a fairy mound after the Hammer. This would place the building at the time of the Pact on Gods Eye.

Problems:

Winterfell is built at the time of the Pact and the Fist is probably in place, there for FM are North of Moat Cailin. Why build Cailin, a massive defensive castle with 30 plus towers, if the tale singers can be believed, in the first place? It is defending South, but defending against what? The FM should have been all tree huggie at this point.

Kick the timeline forward to the Andals, and the structure seems to old for that invasion.

:o

[Dagda]

75 posts in and here is what I'm gathering:

• I'll need to recap a special addendum on the "Andal's Landing" to fill in the gap between 1,000 and 6,000 years before Aegon. It will need to include Artys Arryn's landing, The Sisters and White Harbor. I'll need at least 36 hours to do this.
• A very nice thought by tyryan on Moat Cailin and the COTF (perhpas, a chicken versus the egg scenario).
• We have two missing persons: AtS and one Mistress of Whispers (a.k.a. LIttle Wing).

Here is a class assignment for those seeking extra credit. Tyryan sort of beat me to the punch on the (4) supposedly pacts. The community is encouraged to review tyryan's post #26 for details on the four pacts and offer you input on when these items actually occurred. NOTE: they are (4) supposedly pacts. Don't feel completted to time stamp one if you don't feel that it ever existed.

Pact Number One is still a problem for me since we still have Warring FM Kingdoms in the North. Stark, Bolton, Dustun, and on. The Pact would, or should, create a common cause that created the a Wall and the Crows, yet it seems that chaos continued as usual. Boltons were only subdued 1000 yrs ago.

Anyone have a theory for this?

[Melifeather]

Pact Number One is still a problem for me since we still have Warring FM Kingdoms in the North. Stark, Bolton, Dustun, and on. The Pact would, or should, create a common cause that created the a Wall and the Crows, yet it seems that chaos continued as usual. Boltons were only subdued 1000 yrs ago.

Anyone have a theory for this?

I think trying to establish pacts where none have been mentioned in the text is problematic. The only Pact is the one between the Children and the First Men signed on the Isle of Faces.

The only other "pacts" that seem to be in evidence are the marriages between warring families, and that can be supported by the text.

[Dagda]

I think it's wrong to keep saying there were two "hammers". There was only one Hammer used and it was on the Neck. The Children made the seas rise to sweep away the Arm of Dorne, and called down the Hammer of the Waters on the Neck. I think it would be helpful to think of the Arm of Dorne being swept by a tsunami wave. Whereas calling down a Hammer implies an impact, probably a comet made of ice.

Either way, both failed utterly. CotF equals Not To Bright. I know, sarcastic, but the truth still is that for being powerful users of magic, they seem to get their butts whipped every time they step out of their caves. Makes me feel that they are almost irrelevant.

[Yield.]

I thought Moat Caillin was at the top (north end) of the causeway and that would-be invaders had to either stick to the causeway or sink in the bogs trying to get to it? In either event its clearly modelled on Scotland's neck other than to move Stirling Castle from the south end to the north end of the causeway - originally built by the Romans as it happens.

I think that the description of Moat Caillin clearly suggests a lot of the damage is down to damp and subsidence arising out of it being built on the edge of a bog, but especially with the causeway in place it shouldn't have been that difficult to move stone to the site - and certainly a lot easier than building a 300 mile wall of ice.

I agree with the first paragraph entirely. Had not even thought of Stirling Castle in this context, well done!

But I don't see how that much damage on Moat Cailin could be from subsidence. The huge blocks are strewn all over the place and they are made of basalt. If I remember my geography correctly so is the Giant's Causeway. That was formed millenia ago and there is no subsidence despite being on the edge of the sea.

Ah, in that case you're missing the point. The timelines are very important in establishing who did what to who and when. GRRM undoubtedly has his own set of timelines providing a framework for the books and there appear to be significant gaps and discrepancies in what we've been told. The Nights King may simply be a ghost story, but if it is moved forward to the Andal period and tied into the flight of the Old Races beyond the Wall it then becomes much more significant. Similarly a possible connection between the Azor Ahai story and the "darkness" of the Valyrian empire. Some of the speculation may be off, or at best following a blind alley, but that's why we're looking into it.

I love the idea of the Others and the rise of Valyria coinciding. I can even accept the Night's King being taken down by the arrival of the Andals and that it was a power play on the part of the FM turning their coats on the Old Races. The only problem I see is that it really makes mince of the timeline we are given by Old Nan and his being the 13th LC.

[Greymoon]

@ Feather Crystal:

this : (quoted a few days ago)

When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones. They would brand their captives with hot irons and break them to the whip before shipping them off across the sea, and these same black stone walls bore witness. “Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.”

Doesn't make me think that there's a Stark/Bolton bastard who was legitimized, but rather it sounds like a sober "retelling" of the long night...kind of. There isn't much to work with here, but "A long and cruel winter" - "Ice Eyes," like the eyes of a WW, or the NK's wife. The presence of "Brandon Stark" who may have been the Night's King. etc. seem like subtle clues. I think we can doubt that the LN happened at all. It's a legend, no one believes the tales of old Nan. What's to say that it didn't all get mixed up (legends/true events), over the centuries?

What's the timeline for these events?

either way, Old Nan says that during the LN, woman "mated" with inhuman creatures... surely this has been discussed before...

But I think it's possible that WW + FM = the actual northerners/wildlings, some of which have stronger WW blood (wargs, skinchangers etc.) than most...Wouldn't that make wargs and skinchangers sort of changelings? If Craster's blood is especially potent (and he is practicing incest like the Targaryens who cultivate Valyrian blood) the male babes might be more "changeling" than most - thus raised by the WW.

I do think it's quite possible that the FM blood is mixed with WW blood (see the theories on Roose Bolton for ex.). I'd expect the "potent" magical blood of the FM to have WW origins.

Another thought:

The northerners mated with WW, the crannogmen with Children of the Forest; in order to gain “magical powers,” and subdue the Andals? Over time, these “powerful” humans became arrogant (or scared) and turned against the old races in favor for allying with their human cousins?

Thus the Wall was build - but wary of the anger and power of the WW; the humans created the Watch to "keep the peace." This would fit with the NK playing the role of “peace keeper" (sin eater?): He made offerings and had intercourse with a WW...who might have reasons of their own for wanting human blood in their veins, and/or half human children. The free folk on the other side of the wall could be descendents of the unions between the LCs of the NW and WW. Or the descendents of prisoners send into exile (as mentioned by another poster in heresy 91 IIRC) – I like the idea of the prisoners “serving” the WW though.

As for the children - in concrete, the question of the almost "extinction" of the CotF seems almost like the question of the Neanderthal

...did the Neanderthal "die out" or was he assimilated to the Homo Sapiens? For the children, I believe they have been assimilated to the FM, and their blood is strong in the Reeds for example.

Though this theory doesn’t explain how/why northerners and crannogman could have similar abilities... though I'm not certain they do at all. Jojen and Bran really have different gifts.

EDIT: posted before I was finished typing

[redriver]

Either way, both failed utterly. CotF equals Not To Bright. I know, sarcastic, but the truth still is that for being powerful users of magic, they seem to get their butts whipped every time they step out of their caves. Makes me feel that they are almost irrelevant.

Neither failed actually. They didn't work as expected,but they worked.The shattering of the Arm bought time for the FM to integrate with the ways of the Old Gods and stop chopping down weirwoods.The Neck worked too,in that it gave rise to a culture who would adapt to that swamp and help repel any northern invaders.Maybe it would be helpful to view time from a weirwood perspective,rather than COTF.

[Yield.]

I think it's wrong to keep saying there were two "hammers". There was only one Hammer used and it was on the Neck. The Children made the seas rise to sweep away the Arm of Dorne, and called down the Hammer of the Waters on the Neck. I think it would be helpful to think of the Arm of Dorne being swept by a tsunami wave. Whereas calling down a Hammer implies an impact, probably a comet made of ice.

I thinks so too. I am not as confident as you and redriver about the comet theory (although I like it) only because the Neck is rather thin when you look and the map and the Hammer could have been the water from both sides crashing in at the same time.

I think trying to establish pacts where none have been mentioned in the text is problematic. The only Pact is the one between the Children and the First Men signed on the Isle of Faces.

The only other "pacts" that seem to be in evidence are the marriages between warring families, and that can be supported by the text.

Again I see it that way too. Arranging marriages to settle feuding was quite common and in it's own way it is a pact. If the strongest families inter-marry then they in turn would bind their lesser houses to the agreement as well. When Rickard Stark defeated the Marsh King and married his daughter that meant all the houses under the King in the North were bound to the agreement just as all of the Marsh King's liege subjects had to been the knee to Rickard and the North.

[Yield.]

Pact Number One is still a problem for me since we still have Warring FM Kingdoms in the North. Stark, Bolton, Dustun, and on. The Pact would, or should, create a common cause that created the a Wall and the Crows, yet it seems that chaos continued as usual. Boltons were only subdued 1000 yrs ago.

Anyone have a theory for this?

Well the Pact made peace between the FM and the Children, meaning the FM could no longer make war on the Children not that they couldn't continue to fight among themselves. Feuding between house/clans for better lands, titles and positions would not violate a Pact with the Children, just so long as the FM didn't destroy the Children's trees and homes then killing themselves off would be fine.