Rickon's Role

[QuoththeRaven]

Don't forget that from WOIAF we learn that Skagos was the last people to bend the knee to the Starks.

Not entirely guaranteed that Rickon would have been welcomed with open arms.

[Annarkie]

As much as I love all these speculations, part of me wonders if Davos never finds Rickon and his whereabouts are never confirmed except for maybe a hint at the end of ADOS.

I hope not though. Unsolved mysteries in fiction bug me.

[sagewich]

I am not sure Rickon or Sansa make to the end of the series. Rickon is so young. Martin has said he might rework Osha's character. Maybe she took a little boy and made him into a Stark.

I have read all the Pawn to Player stuff. But Sansa is still a pawn. She cannot be a player unless LF is out of the picture. Perhaps she can get the Vale to rise for her, if she gives up LF.

Martin has lamented he made the principle characters so young. I think Rickon will suffer because of this.

[~No One~]

^Maybe. If that happens, the Stark family has two female heirs to carry on the line. Kind of like the Karstarks, and the Mormonts, and maybe the Manderly's (can't quite remember if there's a 3rd generation male heir at the moment). The North could be turning into a matriarchichal society!

[Tannim]

First post, long time lurker, so savage me per normal...

Rickon, lacking a POV, becomes a pawn and rally symbol for the North, whom desperately want a Stark back. His tale will either be referenced by other POV characters, Asha, Theon, whomever is left up north, or simply run Rickon beside Davos for however long the story requires the boy to be around. Without the five year gap/age up, his child status makes using him beyond a symbol or in political context is difficult, narratively speaking.

That aside, Rickon's story returns and is told from Davos POV, beginning on Skagos, with Osha in tow. Exposition mixed with political maneuvers by Davos, and they're on ship back to White Harbor ahead of the worst winter storms at sea. Though I hope to see Rickon returning with more that Shaggydog and Osha, personal fanfic he gains a pack of spearwife/mothers as a sort of personal honor guard. Strings attached by Skagos as condition to let last known Stark male alive to leave the island alive. He'll be proclaimed Lord of Winterfell with either Davos/Manderly appointed as Lord protector, or perhaps a southeron lord Stannis is rewarding for service with position of power. If he reaches Winterfell, Rickon will be the first Stark to arrive, and become the rally point not just for the North, but for the remainder of the Stark pack.

Beyond that, difficult to predict, as the Other invasion should happen soon, which would reduce the Game to pointlessness, thus Rickon's future role into a symbol. The last, and proclaimed Stark, Lord of Winterfell and the North. Too many variables, mainly the Others invasion and White Walker armies sweeping south, so the kids survival remains up for debate.

In-world afterwords, Rickon's perceived wildness would led a future bridge between the Free Folk and Kneelers/North, not necessarly uniting them, but providing someone whom can understand both sides of the coin. A Northerner, yet raised by a wildling(Osha) for years. Rickon can help settle to two cultures into one united North.

[bemused]

Tannim...

This won't be a savaging , but I do have a few points to discuss.

At several points it's mentioned that autumn is the worst season for storms at sea, so Davos &co could have a relatively uneventful return. (This also gives me hope for some of Jon's ships .I believe Mel is wrong. Of course there will still be storms, but they could start becoming less violent, with longer grace periods between, affecting many story lines.)

I think Manderly purposely misleads Davos as to what role the North wants Rickon to play. Though I think some in the north now have an inkling about the Others, most people still do not. ... But they do know what winter generally means for them . As per conventional wisdom, they believe they're facing a long winter following the past long summer, and know they're more poorly prepared than usual , because of the war. Children are very much at risk.

I feel they're looking to Jon or Benjen (yes, Benjen) to be the Stark in Winterfell for the now, and to Rickon as the future hope. Playing into this , I think Benjen is currently the Hooded Man, having probably seen the Others and wights first hand and having been in contact with the CoTF. If there's a magic-based reason that a Stark should be at the Wall and a Stark in WF, I'm sure it's better if they're actually capable of leading - I don't think a figurehead would be enough, with the Others returning.

(I think GRRM put prophetic words into Qhorin's mouth when he says "Starks must rally the north." and I don't think it's at all coincidental that he says "Starks" rather than "a Stark".)

As the future hope, I feel it will be important for Rickon to have someone of Stark blood as guardian, for magical reasons as well as political (someone who is aware ,or becoming aware, of what Starks are, and what their role is from all aspects.)

Unlike some , I don't think that the Wall will be breached or fall too soon (e.g. while Jon is incapacitated or "dead" ;) ). Any way you look at it, everyone's goose would be cooked if that was the case. Narratively speaking , if the main characters are to be able to make any kind of a fight of it (and by that, I don't mean emerging unscathed with everything coming up roses) - first, more knowledge needs to be gained by various parties , resources need to fall into place, the number of political factions need to be reduced ,etc.

My own particular take on the northern resistance movement (or GNC, if you like) is that it's really Benjen pulling it together (he's rallying the north, not just Manderly, or Howland Reed), and that their plan is to take WF from within, introducing more fighters through the crypts. I project that this will be more or less simultaneous with Stannis' battle , so I don't think Stannis will ever take WF, I see him entering it under guest right ... then alliances and the question of any knee-bending will be worked out.

Jon is in the process of building a bridge between the North and the Free Folk, and eventually Rickon (and / or Jon's sons-to-be ?) could definitely continue the good work.

[~No One~]

^Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't GRRM say somewhere that you don't write a 700-foot wall into a story unless you plan on knocking it down?

I could be making that up, or confusing it with the Direwolves. I know he's gonna use the wolf pack, I just feel like he also identified the Wall as a Checkov's Gun, too. :dunno:

[bemused]

No one.. I don't know if GRRM said that or not, but immediately after telling us about the Wall, we started hearing how vulnerable and in danger of collapse it was. I agree that the wall will come down or be breached at some point.. I'm just saying that I don't think he'll have it happen in the next breath, as it were. I know e.g., that many people point to "only the cold" at the end of Jon's last chapter as the sign that the "event' is about to occur.. I doubt this because none of the plans Jon or Stannis have made to try to combat the situation (food, obsidian weaponry, etc.) have had a chance to take even partial effect, and I think george would want to give them a fighting chance.

[gesch]

There are some very interesting points being brought up in this thread. Never the less I feel like sharing my views on the matter.

I do not think that Rickon has a large role to play himself. However I do think that he is going to play a role just for the fact that he is the only remaining male Stark, that is known of, in Westeros. Jon's claim to Winterfell is weak at best and he appears to have another role to play. Rickon's claim also trumps both Arya's (who, let's face it, seems to have renounced to her Stark ways) and Sansa's (whose position is vastly different to her current situation posing as Arianne). For one succession in most of Westeros ignores the female heirs and the North is not an exception to this, if anything they seem to be less in favor of women's rights in society (eg. the shunning of the Mormont ladies who are seen as aberrations, or the treatment that Alys Karstark receives from her family members, or Lady Dustin to some extent as she is often overlooked by her "peers").

Rickon's apparition will bring conflict to the allegiances in the north. Some northern houses will come into conflict as weather to follow a female Stark that is held by the Boltons (as would be the fake Arya) or a legitimate Stark child in Stannis' power (if we assume that Davos will be successfull in his quest). I do however have some doubt as to this belief that seems to permeate the Northern politics where the Starks, the loyalty to Winterfell and Ned Stark are never put in question. Do any of the houses have their own agendas? Are all of them content to answering to their Leige Lord's evrey whim? Will they accept a new Leige Lord and his agenda blindly? Of this I am not so sure. i do believe that Ned had set up a great political structure which gave him military support but I do think this has been weakened after the whole King in the North ordeal and furthermore by the political unrest in the North brought by the apparent disappearance of House Stark and their seat, Winterfell.

I also want to put forth that is is highly unlikely that Rickon will show up with a large amount of Skagosi troops to bolster anyone's camp. There are several reasons for this. First, why are we assuming the Skagos has any interest in joining the political powerplay that is occurring everywhere. The only reason for this to occur would be if Skagos is having trouble with the Others. if this were to be true, then the numbers brought by Rickon would be minimal. Second, there is no reason to believe that Skagos would gather behind Rickon, for any reason in particular. Yes he is Stark, and yes he may be a Warg but both of these are weak reasons to grant Rickon a position of leadership. We are also assuming that there are no internal political interests within Skagos, which I also think is highly unlikely (most of the communities we have visited within Westeros seem to have conflicting political interests). Third, I highly doubt that isolationist Skagos is going to suddenly appear and easily fit in to anyone's plans without disturbing them. So for these reasons, and a bit of narrative sense I would put aside this belief. It seems a bit convenient to bring Rickon as a leader from out of left field with a convenient army to put things in order. Why would we assume that Skagosi warfare is up to par with the Westerosi standards?

I do however find coherence in the arguments put forth that Rickon may return with favorable opinions of Wildings, thanks to Osha's influence, and may be a voice of reason, or a bridge to ease the integration of the Wildling presence and their customs in the North. I am also partial to the "Wild Stark" argument that has arisen.

I think that Rickon's arrival won't be convenient at all and will rather be the wrench that gets thrown into someone else's carefully planned schemes causing a new situation to arise.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think he gets brought back to the North, everyone gets super excited and it looks like his presence will have a huge impact and then he catched a winter chill and dies.

[Tannim]

Tannim...

This won't be a savaging , but I do have a few points to discuss.

Thank you for not twisting the sword in... though I can see the shieldwall formed up. :laugh:

I've read some of the theories and analysis on the GNC... or my personal favorite descriptive, the Grand Northern Unification Theory, and my main issue with the majority is simple. They're too neat, tie together too well, and lack the twisted drama GRRM has laced the series with so far. Many are also predicated by several 'what if' that cause the whole to fall down, like a Wall, when removed. This may be mine own personal bias, which I accept and own. Rather read everything getting worse in the next book, remove all hope, then the heroes fight back against insurmountable odds, and at least draw even with the foe in the end. That said, if one of the many GNC, or variations such as yours should happen, I'll remain content. Part of the fun of the series, incomplete, is how many directions it could go, and only Martin knows, right now.

Back to the OP, Rickon seems to remain a mascot and status symbol to rally around in the majority of said GNC theories. Outright dismissed/ slain in several. If the boy has any magical position in the future is, at the present, unknown. Least I don't interpret the text as definitively supporting or deigning it, beyond the stock phrase, 'A Stark Must Always Be In Winterfell.' We, the reader, hasn't learned why that should be true. Perhaps the continent spanning magic that keeps the Wall functional IS predicated on a blood Stark in WF, but that to is only a theory till explained in text. Expect a BranVision to infodump more on the Wall in the next book.

Regardless, Rickon won't play any part in current events beyond a ward and pawn to the players in the North. We'll read about him through Davos POV and learn many things Stark, Skagos, and Osha. Background on current events, hints/clues on the future. He might be taken to WInterfell, expect the Manderly will try to keep him at White Harbor, and perhaps an Osha-led escape attempt and endrun to WF. Tis fun pondering what might happen. :drool:

[Lance Corporal Underpants]

A wild stark returns to the scene and a wild crannogman holds a secret many of us believe to be true... interesting parallel

[Brother Seamus]

My guess is that Rickon will have a regent untill he comes of age, not that hard to imagine right? Or am I missing something... :eek:

Exactly. I think that's what happens next. What happens when Robb's decree about Jon Snow shows up is a different question, and will come much later. Lot's of ways that could play out.

And, the fact that Rickon is unable to exercise actual command is beside the point. In terms of plot he fulfills the role of figurehead, uniting the north, generating conflict with Stannis, etc., and in terms of storytelling he can still be plenty entertaining, raising hell, sicking his wolf on those who displease him, lapsing into warg-trances and freaking everyone out. he'll have a protective entourage of amazon warrior woman Osha and a crew of bad-ass Skagosi savages in addition to Shaggy, and the indulgent support of the manderlys and other northern lords. he'll be a total hell-child, and we are sure to get some very entertaining scenes out of him. This is one sub-plot I am especially looking forward to.

[Sirsultan13]

Rickon and Wylla ftw!!!

[Hippocras]

I think he gets brought back to the North, everyone gets super excited and it looks like his presence will have a huge impact and then he catched a winter chill and dies.

My thinking actually isn't too different.

If we extend the theory that Sansa will kill Littlefinger and spike his head at Winterfell, she would likely have strong provocation. For her, that tends to be family related. I can imagine LF would do his best to get rid of Rickon to secure Sansa's claim. If he succeeded, and she found out, that would definitely be the right level of provocation.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

First post, long time lurker, so savage me per normal...

Rickon, lacking a POV, becomes a pawn and rally symbol for the North, whom desperately want a Stark back. His tale will either be referenced by other POV characters, Asha, Theon, whomever is left up north, or simply run Rickon beside Davos for however long the story requires the boy to be around. Without the five year gap/age up, his child status makes using him beyond a symbol or in political context is difficult, narratively speaking.

____________

In-world afterwords, Rickon's perceived wildness would led a future bridge between the Free Folk and Kneelers/North, not necessarly uniting them, but providing someone whom can understand both sides of the coin. A Northerner, yet raised by a wildling(Osha) for years. Rickon can help settle to two cultures into one united North.

I agree with this. Rickon will be too young to do anything other than be a figurehead to rally around. I believe some will try to use him to gain control of the North but even without the Others eminent arrival, that would not be successful in the long run since he'll more than likely be too wild and fierce for that. I also agree that he'll be the perfect Lord of Winterfell after the dust settles from the final battle of Ice and Fire because he'll be able to ally the Northern lords with the Wildlings while rebuilding their lands.

The speculation about Sansa being his Regent or Lord Paramount is amusing considering that she's married to a Lannister and would be in need of a Lord Paramount herself for at least another 3 years. Sansa may be a part of Winterfell's future but it most likely will not be as the ruler. Creating a Stark heir and ruling the new, wilder North is the only reason Rickon exists in the story whereas Sansa's story seems to be very different from that.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

My thinking actually isn't too different.

If we extend the theory that Sansa will kill Littlefinger and spike his head at Winterfell, she would likely have strong provocation. For her, that tends to be family related. I can imagine LF would do his best to get rid of Rickon to secure Sansa's claim. If he succeeded, and she found out, that would definitely be the right level of provocation.

It would indeed, Though it is not as if she hasn't already got enough reasons to kill LF. All it would take is a few words from someone whom she trusts to reveal his role in her family's downfall, and what he did to her best friend. Shudder.

I have a feeling that some kid will just pop their clogs once the Winter gets here, it was just such a common way to die in medieval europe. And has been mentioned multiple times in the story too. Also I think his really is a Shaggy Dog story.

The speculation about Sansa being his Regent or Lord Paramount is amusing considering that she's married to a Lannister and would be in need of a Lord Paramount herself for at least another 3 years.

Actually Sansa is almost 14 at the end of AFFC. She made Alayne a yr older but she thinks how she is almost 14 now. So she only has 2 years until her majority, two books can cover two years I'd say. That said as I think Rickon will just die of natural causes I'm not sure she will ever be his regent, it is a possibility though. Also Robb was not actually 16 when he became Lord of Winterfell/King. But Cat saw there was no point in insisting on a regency when it would only damage his rulership in the long run to see him chided by his mother like a child. Joffrey was still not 16 at his wedding But he was going to be ruling in his own right once he wed Margaery. I think the issue of when a child is allowed to rule without a regent is very grey and the closer they get to 16 the more likely it is that they dispense with a regent. sansa is a woman grown, she has flowered, IF she takes a new husband (whom the North can accept) I can see her being treated exactly as though she were in her majority even if she is actually only 14 or 15 at the time.

[Tannim]

I agree with this. Rickon will be too young to do anything other than be a figurehead to rally around. I believe some will try to use him to gain control of the North but even without the Others eminent arrival, that would not be successful in the long run since he'll more than likely be too wild and fierce for that. I also agree that he'll be the perfect Lord of Winterfell after the dust settles from the final battle of Ice and Fire because he'll be able to ally the Northern lords with the Wildlings while rebuilding their lands.

The speculation about Sansa being his Regent or Lord Paramount is amusing considering that she's married to a Lannister and would be in need of a Lord Paramount herself for at least another 3 years. Sansa may be a part of Winterfell's future but it most likely will not be as the ruler. Creating a Stark heir and ruling the new, wilder North is the only reason Rickon exists in the story whereas Sansa's story seems to be very different from that.

Yes, Rickon became a troublesome plotline for GRRM once the gap was discarded, so symbol the boy becomes. If he survives, we might get an epilogue of him as Lord of Winterfell, but I don't hold out hope. Though of minimal impact, Martin could have the boy killed off in the next few books.

Sansa as regent amuses me also. Advisor, yes, regent no. The north will need a war leader for years to come, and Sansa isn't the type, nor does she have the knowledge/training to lead warriors. Just a girl, yes she's gained skills from her exp and LF, but nothing close to needs required to rule a realm. Conversely, Sansa, with her powers of empathy and calming effects, might be the only person whom could calm Rickon and Shaggydog enough for polite company. Doubtful Osha has taught the boy courtly manners. :laugh:

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Yes, Rickon became a troublesome plotline for GRRM once the gap was discarded, so symbol the boy becomes. If he survives, we might get an epilogue of him as Lord of Winterfell, but I don't hold out hope. Though of minimal impact, Martin could have the boy killed off in the next few books.

I go back and forth on Rickon's survival odds. Considering he's been offstage for the majority of the series, it really does seem as though his only reason to exist is so he can create the next heir of Winterfell but at the same time, we can't ignore his wolf's name. Who knows.

Sansa as regent amuses me also. Advisor, yes, regent no. The north will need a war leader for years to come, and Sansa isn't the type, nor does she have the knowledge/training to lead warriors. Just a girl, yes she's gained skills from her exp and LF, but nothing close to needs required to rule a realm. Conversely, Sansa, with her powers of empathy and calming effects, might be the only person whom could calm Rickon and Shaggydog enough for polite company. Doubtful Osha has taught the boy courtly manners. :laugh:

Agreed, if Rickon does survive, he'll no doubt be very rough around the edges but I think that's just what the North will need after all the battles are done.

[SerTonyStark]

Rickon is already dead, the George derives his life force from absorbing our pain. There's only one Stark left with no plot armor.