The Exile of House Manderly

[Roddy the Ruin]

From the Wiki-

According to Lady Rohanne Webber, House Manderly used to exist along the banks of the mighty river Mander, but left or was driven away about a thousand years ago. Lord Godric Borrell further refines the time period to "no more than nine hundred years ago" and that the House had overreached itself and been repelled by the "green hands", apparently a reference to House Gardener. The implication seems to be that House Manderly attempted and failed to take power in the Reach from House Gardener at the time. They fled north and were welcomed by the Starks of Winterfell as their own bannermen. The Manderlys are one of the few great houses of the North to follow the Faith of the Seven instead of the old gods and thus have a strong tradition of knighthood.

The Starks awarded the Wolf's Den to the Manderlys and tasked them with defending the White Knife. The city of White Harbor was developed by the Manderlys over the following centuries. It is one of the five cities of Westeros, and is the main northern port for commerce and naval transport. The New Castle was built to replace the aging Wolf's Den.

I'm not saying that the Starks didn't gain something out of this and that it wasn't a completely selfless act but if the Manderlys did try to take power in the Reach and failed the Starks risked a great deal for an uncertain gain. Doing so likely pissed off House Gardener and created a lasting animosity between the two regions. With this in mind I think it is the current mindset of the Manderly that they owe House Stark a debt and it is time to pay up. Sure they may gain great favor for doing this but they are risking a great deal in doing so, why shouldn't they reap the benefits?

[Warden of the Cheesy]

Nice catch. I think it's more than reasonable to believe that the Manderlys are one of the many houses still loyal to the Starks. It could certainly be related to them having or at least knowing where Rickon is (potentially anyways) and know that within that piece they hold a lot of potential power in the region, but hey, if they help restore the Starks, they deserve some sort of reward anyways.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Not really seeing what the Starks risked there. The Reach is thousands of leagues from the North. What would House Gardener have done to the North, institute a ban on letting them drink Arbor Red? The First Men had spent thousands of years preventing the kingdoms of the south from invading, so it's not like House Gardener would have done anything but throw dead men at Moat Cailin. I suppose they could have used their fleet, if they had one back then, to raid and blockade the ports of the North, but the ports didn't really exist yet. There were some castles near or on the water (Deepwood Motte, Wolfe's Den, Flint's Finger, Bear Island), but nothing that would really affect commerce all that much. To raid the Stony Shore they'd have to fight their way past the ironborn and Westermen in the West for little gain.

Wolf's Den had been passed around pretty much all the Northern families and it kept getting taken, by the Arryns, pirates, and raiders from the Three Sisters. It was pretty much a win-win for them. If they sheltered House Manderly, they ally themselves with a house competent and resourceful enough to even stage a coup de tat against a ruling family. If the Manderlys were remotely useful, the Starks gained a loyal bannerman who helps them cement control of the Bite and possibly jumpstart commerce in the area (more taxes). If they fail the Manderlys get wiped out and the Wolf's Den situation isn't any worse than has been. Since we know the Manderlys have been very successful at defending the White Knife and built up one of 5 cities in Westeros along with being the richest, most powerful vassal in the North, I think the minimal risk turned out far better than the Starks ever thought.

[mindchap]

I think it works both ways for the Manderlys. They know they owe the Starks but since there are few selfless acts in these books, I'm sure they won't be opposed to a little gain on their behalf. I have always wondered if maybe the Manderlys were a bigger house before they came North, like maybe instead of being run out, they were replaced.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Not really seeing what the Starks risked there. The Reach is thousands of leagues from the North. What would House Gardener have done to the North, institute a ban on letting them drink Arbor Red? The First Men had spent thousands of years preventing the kingdoms of the south from invading, so it's not like House Gardener would have done anything but throw dead men at Moat Cailin. I suppose they could have used their fleet, if they had one back then, to raid and blockade the ports of the North, but the ports didn't really exist yet. There were some castles near or on the water (Deepwood Motte, Wolfe's Den, Flint's Finger, Bear Island), but nothing that would really affect commerce all that much. To raid the Stony Shore they'd have to fight their way past the ironborn and Westermen in the West for little gain.

Wolf's Den had been passed around pretty much all the Northern families and it kept getting taken, by the Arryns, pirates, and raiders from the Three Sisters. It was pretty much a win-win for them. If they sheltered House Manderly, they ally themselves with a house competent and resourceful enough to even stage a coup de tat against a ruling family. If the Manderlys were remotely useful, the Starks gained a loyal bannerman who helps them cement control of the Bite and possibly jumpstart commerce in the area (more taxes). If they fail the Manderlys get wiped out and the Wolf's Den situation isn't any worse than has been. Since we know the Manderlys have been very successful at defending the White Knife and built up one of 5 cities in Westeros along with being the richest, most powerful vassal in the North, I think the minimal risk turned out far better than the Starks ever thought.

The Riverlands were constantly fought over by the Reach, Stormlands, and Iron islands. At the time it's unclear who had control over the Riverlands.

[GallowsKnight]

I've always wondered how the Manderlys fled. I imagine they had to have taken some sort of military force with them, house retainers, men at arms etc. Otherwise I can't see them being given or being able to hold the Wolf's den.

But at the same time how would they cross all that land with an army? The Riverlands could have been under the Storm King's reign and enemies of the Reach.Unless they had some sort of navy and escaped that way instead.

Anyway there's a good story to be told there.

[Universal Sword Donor]

The Riverlands were constantly fought over by the Reach, Stormlands, and Iron islands. At the time it's unclear who had control over the Riverlands.

True, the Reach could have controlled the Riverlands, but the logistics for an invasion would still have been a nightmare. The Twins didn't exist yet, so there wasn't really a "base" to launch from. The forces from up by the Neck would have had to march south to meet up with any force marshaling its strength. Even then, they still run into Moat Cailin and a bunch of crannogmen with poison arrows and a lot of pissed of Northerners garrisoning Moat Cailin. I'd also imagine that the Manderlys had to bring at least some of their strength with them when they setted around Wolf's Den. If they had been defeated so thoroughly that they had no strength left, they'd never have been able to defend Wolf's Den unless they were given men. If the Reach had been allied with Casterly Rock or the Ironborn, even the Arryns, I could see it being more of a gamble for the Starks, but all those kingdoms had been righting with each other for hundreds of years.

[Roddy the Ruin]

True, the Reach could have controlled the Riverlands, but the logistics for an invasion would still have been a nightmare. The Twins didn't exist yet, so there wasn't really a "base" to launch from. The forces from up by the Neck would have had to march south to meet up with any force marshaling its strength. Even then, they still run into Moat Cailin and a bunch of crannogmen with poison arrows and a lot of pissed of Northerners garrisoning Moat Cailin. I'd also imagine that the Manderlys had to bring at least some of their strength with them when they setted around Wolf's Den. If they had been defeated so thoroughly that they had no strength left, they'd never have been able to defend Wolf's Den unless they were given men. If the Reach had been allied with Casterly Rock or the Ironborn, even the Arryns, I could see it being more of a gamble for the Starks, but all those kingdoms had been righting with each other for hundreds of years.

i don't think they invaded, I think they fled through the Riverlands to the North knowing that if they somehow got refuge there, House Gardener couldn't do a thing about it. And they were not only granted asylum, they were given fertile lands and eventually one of the greatest port cities on the continent. And it's not as if the Starks did it solely out of the goodness in their hearts, but the fact remains the Starks took a huge risk with Manderlys and gave the Manderlys more then they ever dreamed. And now it is time to return the favor.

[Universal Sword Donor]

i don't think they invaded, I think they fled through the Riverlands to the North knowing that if they somehow got refuge there, House Gardener couldn't do a thing about it. And they were not only granted asylum, they were given fertile lands and eventually one of the greatest port cities on the continent. And it's not as if the Starks did it solely out of the goodness in their hearts, but the fact remains the Starks took a huge risk with Manderlys and gave the Manderlys more then they ever dreamed. And now it is time to return the favor.

Okay you're going to have to point out the risk then as you have yet to identify it.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Okay you're going to have to point out the risk then as you have yet to identify it.

Animosity between two Kingdoms, leading to possible war. And they may have had some trade with them as well. And while the Reach could never hope to defeat the North in the north, they could still land a force via a fleet to kill the Manderlys which would lead to some death and destruction in the North.

Aside from that it could cause some major tension between the Starks and their bannermen. Bringing a treasonous Southern family into the north and giving them some of the most fertile land in the North when they don't even share the same religion could definitely lead to civil war.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Animosity between two Kingdoms, leading to possible war. And they may have had some trade with them as well. And while the Reach could never hope to defeat the North in the north, they could still land a force via a fleet to kill the Manderlys which would lead to some death and destruction in the North.

Animosity between the two kingdoms = great

War between the two? They have to sail their invasion force (which no one knows they have or not) 3/4 of the way around Westeros past Dorne, the Stormlands, and the Vale, all of whom they've been fighting for hundreds of years. If the North somehow didn't find until the Reach flotilla got to the Bite, Wolf's Den still doesn't need to do anything but hold out until the Northern strength can come and smash the siege.

It's the equivalent of France trying to invade Russia by boat to get at St Petersburg, just an incredibly bad idea. Stannis needed 200 ships to drop ~5000 soldiers at Blackwater Bay. He was sailing from Storm's End. It's not even realistic to see the Reach doing that to grab a failed rebellion being protected by the only kingdom in Westeros that hadn't been successfully invaded up to that point.

As to the treasonous southern house, they weren't given much. They were given a fortress that had changed hands a dozen times since the Starks built it. The land has never been noted as especially fertile, though the fishing is noted as great. The Manderlys built it into something valuable, not the Starks or any of the other Northern families. As to civil war, the Boltons, the only house resisting the Starks in the North, had dipped their banners and pledged fealty to the Starks. If the Starks and their vassals brought the Boltons to heel, no one is going to care about them taking in a family and giving them an old fort that no one really wants anyway.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

When did they actually get the grant from the Starks though? If it was before Aegon the Conqueror came in, it works flawlessly. If it was after, maybe not so much. Am I remembering right that House Gardner ceased to exist because of Aegon? I know some other families claim descent from House Gardener but I'm thinking the risk to the Manderlys would be less once the Gardeners were gone.

[Roddy the Ruin]

When did they actually get the grant from the Starks though? If it was before Aegon the Conqueror came in, it works flawlessly. If it was after, maybe not so much. Am I remembering right that House Gardner ceased to exist because of Aegon? I know some other families claim descent from House Gardener but I'm thinking the risk to the Manderlys would be less once the Gardeners were gone.

900 years before the story begins

[Universal Sword Donor]

When did they actually get the grant from the Starks though? If it was before Aegon the Conqueror came in, it works flawlessly. If it was after, maybe not so much. Am I remembering right that House Gardner ceased to exist because of Aegon? I know some other families claim descent from House Gardener but I'm thinking the risk to the Manderlys would be less once the Gardeners were gone.

Depending on the source, it was between 900 and 1000 before the events of GoT and 600-700 years before Aegon landed.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Depending on the source, it was between 900 and 1000 before the events of GoT and 600-700 years before Aegon landed.

In the Manderlys official history they teach to their children it is 1000 years before the Conquest, meaning 1300 years ago.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Regarding what the Gardeners could have done in retaliation? Die. In their tens of thousands as the King in the North laughed at their attempts to conquer Northmen on their homeground.

[Universal Sword Donor]

In the Manderlys official history they teach to their children it is 1000 years before the Conquest, meaning 1300 years ago.

Which book had that? Can't say I remember anything about the Manderly's official history showing up in ASOIAF or the Dunk and Egg tales.

[sertravisredbeard]

I think he's referring to Wylla Manderly's speech while Davos is in White Harbor.

Yep she says it's a thousand years before the Conquest.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I think he's referring to Wylla Manderly's speech while Davos is in White Harbor.

Yep she says it's a thousand years before the Conquest.

Yeah I went back and read it. Actually I re-read that entire chapter. It love how it takes a 180.

[Petyr Patter]

Reach enmity means little to the North. The idea of marching an army across a continent and lands held by sovereign powers to attack the most defensible kingdom in Westeros is madness. House Gardner undoubtedly considered the matter settled once they took House Manderly's holdings.

I suspect the Manders offered the Starks more than just their loyalty. They were suppose to be one of the richest Houses in the Reach, and their liquid assets might have been more than the Starks would see in 10 generations. Plus, if they timed their arrival right, they might have shown up just as a civil war was winding down, and their resources helped the Starks keep their power.

Finally, realize that White Harbor didn't exist a 1,000 years or so. The river was still important, but House Manderly is responsible for their success with the seat, no the otherway around.