Sansa and Petyr

[The Dragon King]

I'm afraid it was yours, no matter the amount of protesting. You were indeed speaking about LF, but your argument was that since he was willing to kill, this meant he's also willing to rape. I was merely pointing out the fallacy of this assumption.

If you're arguing that LF has no morality whatsoever, that is another matter entirely, but simply saying he's willing to kill doesn't quite demonstrate that, as you yourself point out re. Ned.

I disagree that the only code LF operates by is expediency, and would argue that rape is indeed something that does not fit with his MO: LF manipulates people into doing what he wants, he does not brutalize them into doing it.

Yes, my argument was that since LF____, which means I'm talking about Littlefinger. That he's willing to kill, and I should have said murder, demonstrates his lack of boundaries. So, we see a guy who will not only gladly kill one person but he'll indirectly kill millions by trying to start a war, and when do you see him refrain from an activity because of it's immorality?

As far as his MO, he kidnaps Sansa and than forces her to kiss him...like she means it, of course. I think that shows his character quite clearly.

[Another Locust]

Sorry no sympathy for sweetrobin. There's no way he's innocent either, just a younger joff type character in the making with a health condition and less power. Plus he's a fictional child so hang and quarter him for all I care.

Okay, that was low.

[Snowisnobastard]

Haha how is it low, it's a hypothetical situation about a fictional person. If talking about what bad things may happen to a person who isn't real is too much then you might be taking it a bit too seriously

[SpringKing]

The flaw with this rather biased statement is that the "Damsel in distress" trope still applies here. Saying that Sansa's purpose is to deconstruct this trope is also narrow thinking, because her arc places much more emphasis on "coming of age" type development. Which also invalidates your argument, because the development that you propose is a step backward.

Of course the damsel trope still applies. A character cant subvert a trope if it doesnt apply to them. I'd credit you with pointlessly stating the obvious here, except the italicized 'still' indicates a basic misconception of the obvious - a character cliche cant be manipulated if it doesnt pertain to the character. To think that it could is like saying Jon gender bends the 'whore with a heart of gold' trope because he doesnt charge Ygritte for screwing her. It should also be obvious that every opinion is, by definition, biased. Yours, mine, and theirs. The flaw that narrow thinking should be avoided is, that once the core issue has been identified, narrow thought focuses on the essential without wasting time widely pondering the irrelevant.

Sansa's 'coming of age' arc has taken her from Ned's daughter, to Tyrion's wife, back to LF's daughter. Which invalidates the point that a 'coming of age' arc cant take "a step backward". But, obviously, every arc can go in any direction the author chooses. For example, after being rescued from distress, the damsel decides sitting in a castle doing needlepoint and housework is insanely tedious compared to the thrill of living in peril. So, our adrenaline junkie heroine abandons hearth and home, and returns to a life fraught with danger. Sound like anybody we know in ASOIAF?

Yes, the conventional wisdom is that Sansa's primary arc is 'coming of age'. That at some point in the future the innocent, oppressed princess will gloriously transform, like cygnet become swan, into a strong, independent Queen. Despite no indication that a metamorphosis is in the offing, other than their trope of choice says it has to. Contrarians view Sansa through a different lens. 'Beauty and the Beast' and 'Damsel in distress' are camouflage for her arc's true direction - 'good girl gone bad'. One little lie on the Trident, "I love riding", inevitably becomes the medium whopper, "i dont remember", which transitions into the big lie, "It's all Arya's fault", and culminates in the egregious "Arya has the traitor's blood, not me. I'm good..."

See any pattern here? Not to mention another negligible misdemeanor - betraying her father. Its no wonder Sansa becomes LF's perfect little protege. By the time she arrives in the Vale, falseness and betrayal are second nature to her. Sure we're thrown a few sympathetic scenes, just enough to keep the 'good girl' illusion going. Lately it's revolved around her tender treatment of SR, whom she's also in the process of killing, because daddy's plans are more important than the boy's health.

Sansa's transformation is already taking place as we watch - from naughty little girl to big bad girl. The same arc Lysa and Cersei followed. “Please,” she finished, “you have to let me marry Joffrey... I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.” Funny thing is, Sansa was headed in the wrong direction before LF got hold of her. He may have accelerated her learning curve in the dark art of deceit, but sooner or later, she would have arrived there anyway, courtesy of her own forked tongue.

[Le Cygne]

Or Sansa having another wet dream and being conscious she had it :leer:

Oh, yes, more wet dreams. Myranda told her men dream of women naked. And then she's all, next I will have a sweet dream...

[Another Locust]

Haha how is it low, it's a hypothetical situation about a fictional person. If talking about what bad things may happen to a person who isn't real is too much then you might be taking it a bit too seriously

Were done talking about this. If you wanna talk further, PM me.

Sweetrobin is extremely annoying though

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Lord Robert does have issues with judging the guilt of others. He always seems to want to see people fly. It's hard to be sympathetic when an 8 year old boy sentences one to fly.

Are you saying that because he, an eight year old sick child, has been manipulated by elders he is unlikable?

[Lord Reaver]

Sansa's transformation is already taking place as we watch - from naughty little girl to big bad girl. The same arc Lysa and Cersei followed. “Please,” she finished, “you have to let me marry Joffrey... I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.” Funny thing is, Sansa was headed in the wrong direction before LF got hold of her. He may have accelerated her learning curve in the dark art of deceit, but sooner or later, she would have arrived there anyway, courtesy of her own forked tongue.

And like I've said before, making Sansa Cersei mk II is boring. I'll be very disappointed in GRRM if that's what he has planned.

[Another Locust]

Of course the damsel trope still applies. A character cant subvert a trope if it doesnt apply to them. I'd credit you with pointlessly stating the obvious here, except the italicized 'still' indicates a basic misconception of the obvious - a character cliche cant be manipulated if it doesnt pertain to the character. To think that it could is like saying Jon gender bends the 'whore with a heart of gold' trope because he doesnt charge Ygritte for screwing her. It should also be obvious that every opinion is, by definition, biased. Yours, mine, and theirs. The flaw that narrow thinking should be avoided is, that once the core issue has been identified, [...] The same arc Lysa and Cersei followed. “Please,” she finished, “you have to let me marry Joffrey... I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.” Funny thing is, Sansa was headed in the wrong direction before LF got hold of her. He may have accelerated her learning curve in the dark art of deceit, but sooner or later, she would have arrived there anyway, courtesy of her own forked tongue.

Where have you been? We've all missed you dearly!

[Another Locust]

Are you saying that because he, an eight year old sick child, has been manipulated by elders he is unlikable?

I just think he's annoying. That doesn't mean I want him to die.

[Le Cygne]

In the end, it will be Sweetrobin on the iron throne.

[Another Locust]

In the end, it will be Sweetrobin on the iron throne.

He certainly is an interesting character. But not that interesting, I'm afraid. It's actually kind of sad, considering he's the last Arryn. But that's a topic for another time.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I just think he's annoying. That doesn't mean I want him to die.

That wasn't the discussion. You said he wasn't likeable because of his judgment. You cannot expect an eight year old sick boy who has been coddled and overprotected to have the same kind of judgment of an adult. I am saying you shouldn't dislike him, but not liking him for not having the judgment of an adult is just silly. He is an absolute brat. That is a good reason to consider him annoying.

[Lord Reaver]

He certainly is an interesting character. But not that interesting, I'm afraid. It's actually kind of sad, considering he's the last Arryn. But that's a topic for another time.

Sweetrobin is interesting ? May I ask why ? To me, he's an annoying slightly retarded child who cries for "bad men" to fly. Not all that interesting, really.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I wouldn't say he is interesting. Though I have a major soft spot for the boy despite his bratty behaviour. I am rooting for him to survive and get into adulthood.

[Snowisnobastard]

It seems like he has been destined to die very young from the start so, knowing George, it wouldn't be very shocking if he lived until the end. (Barring a murder)

He always struck me as more of a plot device than an actual character, kinda like rickon. Not saying that neither of them aren't important either.

[Lord Reaver]

I wouldn't say he is interesting. Though I have a major soft spot for the boy despite his bratty behaviour. I am rooting for him to survive and get into adulthood.

Calling for the death of people based on little to no evidence goes beyond "bratty behaviour" if you ask me.

And no, sorry, having just lost a parent doesn't quite give you carte blanche for that in my book.

[Le Cygne]

I like him, I think Sansa does, too, despite his brattiness. Kid has got spunk. He may even be the one to off Littlefinger.

[Boarsbane]

It's too bad Lysa stole him away before he could be shipped off to Tywin or Stannis for some seasoning.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

It's too bad Lysa stole him away before he could be shipped off to Tywin or Stannis for some seasoning.

I am glad that it didn't happen. Both Tywin and Stannis are extremely unsuitable parent for a kid like sweetrobin. No just no. Sansa is better parent for him. At least she has the patience to handle his bratty behaviour.