Borys of Ur Draxa Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 By making peace with the Wildlings and letting them into the realm he's done several things. 1. They are the Realm's problem, not his; it's the realm (Stannis or Tomman) that will have to deal with them, make them kneel etc. They are someone else's problem now. 2. They are no longer enemies to the Night's Watch: now Jon can focus on the Others. 3. All men are behind the wall: he's done his duty to protect. 4. He's got a reserve of experienced recruits if he can manage to feed them through winter. 5. If the Realm does attack the Night's Watch (which may happen), Jon has allies that can survive the bitter-snows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Maester Tarkin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Since you made such a bold claim in your title, I felt compelled to bring Jon (and you) back down to earth. 1) The wildlings are absolutely Jon's problem if they deplete the already-low food supplies at the Wall. How will they make it through winter without starving? 2) Tell that to Bowen Marsh. Plenty within the NW still see the wildlings as enemies. Peace has been imposed by Stannis, but what happens when word of his death gets out? 3) Tell that to Alliser Thorne, Benjen Stark, Bran, Jojen, and Hodor. Not to mention several thousand wildlings slowly dying at Hardhome. 4) See #1. Those recruits are ill-equipped, under-fed, and undisciplined. They won't stand long against wights or Others. 5) While I agree that some wildlings display a some allegiance with Jon, those "allies" couldn't prevent his assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJonJon Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Eggxactly. I could agree with everything you say about Jon's reasoning. Try telling that to everyone who stood by or were actively involved in betraying him. Sometimes best intentions have the worst downfalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeor Fookin Mormont Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 he's a great guy, but i wouldnt go as far as calling him a genius i think his first fatal mistake as LC was to send all his friends away. yeah i understand about that a lord cant be friends with his men thing.but he only has a few friends, and a few people who are loyal to him. he even sent away those who aren't really his 'friends' but just simply loyal to him (emmet, dolorous edd, etc)they were always eager to give him a tail, i know jon hates having a tail, but as a lord, he needs bodyguards(specially considering that the last LC was just stabbed to death by brothers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borys of Ur Draxa Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Since you made such a bold claim in your title, I felt compelled to bring Jon (and you) back down to earth. 1) The wildlings are absolutely Jon's problem if they deplete the already-low food supplies at the Wall. How will they make it through winter without starving? 2) Tell that to Bowen Marsh. Plenty within the NW still see the wildlings as enemies. Peace has been imposed by Stannis, but what happens when word of his death gets out? 3) Tell that to Alliser Thorne, Benjen Stark, Bran, Jojen, and Hodor. Not to mention several thousand wildlings slowly dying at Hardhome. 4) See #1. Those recruits are ill-equipped, under-fed, and undisciplined. They won't stand long against wights or Others. 5) While I agree that some wildlings display a some allegiance with Jon, those "allies" couldn't prevent his assassination. Am I major Tom?I. Jon was making preparations for more food. II. Is Stannis dead? Ramsey Bolton would never lie would he? III. He dosn't know his half-brothers are alive and for Hardhome, he tried. IV. Yet the Wildlings lived amonst the Others for all their lives.V. Was Job assasinated? We just know he was stabbed, not killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'll add a +1 for Jon's vision. He did a strategically, politically and ethically revolutionary thing. He assumed responsibility and devised ways of solve impossible problems, he was trying - without too bad results - to lead a culural leap under the stress of a major crisis. Problems are there, as they always are, and more when you change equilibriums. I would have voted him for a second term, gladly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejhawman Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I'll have to agree Jon was trying to do the hard, but right, thing. The result just showed the task was too big. The NW was going to go down anyway. The Walkers have to get south of the Wall. It all has to seem inevitable up to that point, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Santa of House Claus Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 The smartest thing about being the Wildlings south of The Wall is it will limit the about of Others that can attack the Wall. If they had been left north of The Wall, every Wildling would have become an Other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysodope Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Also every winding behind the wall is one less for the walkers to turn. Every one saved is one less enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorn Snow Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Bringing in the wildlings and borrowing from the Iron-bank to cover food-supplies was the right thing to do. The right "policy" to use a political term.Politics though... is exactly where he fails. He lacks loyal men around him. He underestimates the political opposition to this.But he´s not an all bad politician, he has an ally in House Thenn, and most of the wildlings if he survives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLE Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Also, the idea of bringing the wildlings through the wall wasn't Jon's... it was Stannis's. Jon happened to agree with it, and works out a lot of the details - such as recognising Tormund Giantsbane and the Thenn lords as men who could both act as leaders to other wildlings (because the whole project would be useless unless there was a leader out there that other men would follow), and also as men who could be negotiated with in good faith, and be a good friend as well as a fierce enemy (Tormund and Magnar Sigorn Thenn are capable of making alliances and friendships, whereas The Weeper would reject any envoys sent to him... which, at least, means that Jon and the Watch are unlikely to be faced with the business of having to let the Weeper through in peace, a prospect he has no enthusiasm for): but it was Stannis's idea to settle the wildlings on the very land that, by constant raiding, they had driven away the previous population.And it kind of works too: they can only have the kind of social structure and customs they have north of the Wall because they don't live by farming and growing crops, and are not tied to one place. Let them learn how to plant crops and farm, and thus be tied to the land they live on, and they will realise just *why* the people south of the Wall live as they do, and how even land itself can end up as "property".It's similar to the way that many Amerindian tribes did not understand the concept of land ownership - "one does not sell the earth on which people walk". Of course, the white man's reaction was to name the land as owned, and drive the former owners off it: Stannis has adopted the exact opposite tactic, actually giving the wildlings something worth holding on to, and with it will follow education as to *why* it's worth holding, as those who survive the winter learn to farm the land and deal with crops, land management, tame herds and fences - as being "their own", rather than the marks of their enemies.In some ways this might be a sad thing: in other ways, if it keeps them alive and well-fed where they would otherwise starve, it's a good thing. And of course those who do not want the new lifestyle would be free to return beyond the Wall after the winter, and live according to what the far Northern lands can support. So long as they are south of the Wall, though, let them live according to the manner that is most fitted to the land south of the Wall.If it works... it may well provide new understanding even for those that reject the gift and choose to return north when summer comes again, and bring about greater peace between the people north and south of the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince of Newcastle Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I think Jons mistakes were simply making changes to fast. The wildlings have been the enemy for thousands of years... Suddenly the new LC, who has spent a lot of time with them, is just letting them through the wall. He's in a tough position on this though. He cannot leave them to die for a number of reasons. What is he to do? There is no right answer. He made a mistake on trying to recruit people to ride on the dread fort with him. The watch takes no part and this is a mistake. It's easy to understand it though. I don't think he's a genius. I think he's just tried to make the best of a bad situation and largely succeeded. Apart from getting stabbed by a load of mutineers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Politics though... is exactly where he fails. He lacks loyal men around him. He underestimates the political opposition to this.He had loyal men around him. His failing was to trust too much or not keep an eye in those who weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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