R+L = J v 73

[MtnLion]

I'm not exactly disagreeing .... It's just odd that you have such a concentration around one person. I doubt that Rhaegar had KG protection at all times when he was camping out at Sumerhall, and he was second in line. I know, no war, but the world of Westeros is still a dangerous place.

There is a line (I'm being lazy) that says that Rhaegar always has his Kingsguard (we know specifically Whent and Dayne) wi9th him unless he is at Summerhall. They may wait for him in the woods nearby, but he does not travel alone.

Reported

[Fred of Ashai]

This is something that I've always been unsure on:

When Aerys died, which of his family members was his heir? Did it go to Aegon/Jon even though Rhaegar was dead and was never king, or was it Viserys' as his eldest living son?

Excellent question. We don't know the answer. There is precedent in Westeros and in real life that says Viserys would come before Rhaegar's sons if Rhaegar was never king. There is also a lot of evidence that kings often made wills to govern the succession; we don't know if Aerys had one but if he did it probably didn't mention Jon.

Martin has said that succession in Westeros was a messy affair and that there were conflicting precedents. I find the idea that Hoghtower would have decided Jon was the new king, as the civil war was being lost and the remaining Targaryens likely knew nothing about him, to be ridiculous.

[MtnLion]

:-)

I must say I'm becoming more and more intrigued with Varys and his possible involvement. You know, the whole abduction and disappearance seems so much out of character for Rhaegar - were it the wild wolf, I wouldn't bat a lash, but for someone supposedly very intelligent, dutiful and deliberate, it rubs me the wrong way. Somehow, I'd rather see Rhaegar making a detailed plan and setting in motion some preparations to mitigate the anticipated problems (and putting it all down in precise handwriting with diagrams :D). If he did make some arrangements, though, then Varys is exactly the right person to thwart them.

Varys is an intriguing personality. I just don't believe that he knows who Jon really is. Lyanna had a touch of the wolf in her, too. Rhaegar's actions may have been forced by Lyanna's demands. I agree that he would make deliberated plans.

[Fred of Ashai]

I see. Protecting a royal falls legitimately into 'other duties as assigned'.

In terms of deciding, I'm not so sure about Dayne. I think if it ever came down to where loyalties lie, Dayne would be willing to interpret in favor of Rhaegar, whereas Hightower and Selmy would want to follow the orders only so far as the broadest interpretation would allow, and no further (ie., royal child ok, not mistress).

I think it is more than having orders to protect someone. Selmy say that King's guard protection can be extended to people other than the king, including wives, royal children, mistresses and bastards. To me this implies that once you have King's guard protection, that King's guard has to protect you as though you were the king. That is why the King's guards in the Princess and the Queen were allowed to leave Aegon II with no King's guards to protect him when Aegon fled to Dragonstone -- because they were responsible for protecting someone else.

[MtnLion]

Excellent question. We don't know the answer. There is precedent in Westeros and in real life that says Viserys would come before Rhaegar's sons if Rhaegar was never king. There is also a lot of evidence that kings often made wills to govern the succession; we don't know if Aerys had one but if he did it probably didn't mention Jon.

Martin has said that succession in Westeros was a messy affair and that there were conflicting precedents. I find the idea that Hoghtower would have decided Jon was the new king, as the civil war was being lost and the remaining Targaryens likely knew nothing about him, to be ridiculous.

No, we don't. Since the Dance of the Dragons Targaryen inheritance is based upon Agnatic Primogeniture, oldest son of oldest son.

[Fred of Ashai]

That is the king's prerogative. Now, twist it so that Aerys does it.

I think Rhaegar had the authority to extend King's guard protection to his wife or mistress. Otherwise, how did Lyanna get King's guard protection? In other words, Barristan says some kings chose to extend protection to wives, mistresses and bastards. If that means Aerys was the only one who had the power to do that, the three King's guards would not have protected Lyanna even if she was Rhaegar's wife.

Unless you think the price Rhaegar extracted from Aerys before he went to the Trident was an order from the king making them protect Lyanna. In which case, again, it doesn't matter if she was a wife or a mistress.

[Fred of Ashai]

No, we don't. Since the Dance of the Dragons Targaryen inheritance is based upon Agnatic Primogeniture, oldest son of oldest son.

Then how did Egg become king before Aerion's son? Aerion was Egg's older brother. This was after the Dance.

[The guy from the Vale]

Then how did Egg become king before Aerion's son? Aerion was Egg's older brother. This was after the Dance.

Egg became king via a Grand Council, the only body able to override the line of inheritance.

[MtnLion]

I think Rhaegar had the authority to extend King's guard protection to his wife or mistress. Otherwise, how did Lyanna get King's guard protection? In other words, Barristan says some kings chose to extend protection to wives, mistresses and bastards. If that means Aerys was the only one who had the power to do that, the three King's guards would not have protected Lyanna even if she was Rhaegar's wife.

Unless you think the price Rhaegar extracted from Aerys before he went to the Trident was an order from the king making them protect Lyanna. In which case, again, it doesn't matter if she was a wife or a mistress.

You are selectively remembering what Barristan thinks. How about the whole quote in context?

I will do it for you:

Barristan, page 737, A Dance with Dragons:

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater or lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their side.

So, now how does "We are Kingsguard and have a vow" satisfy that?

[stateofdissipation]

I support the R+L=J theory

However I would oppose any attempt at stating a specific memory from Ned as having only one meaning and being definite evidence that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The strength of the case rests pn the sum of its components.

Jon's legitimacy is a theory that I grudgingly support. Like R+L=J it is suppoted by the sum of its components.

I still oppose claim that aa part of it must be true, can only be taken one way, or is conclusive evidence.

I oppose the idea of Polygamy.

There are 2 ways to make a child legitimate: marriage and royal decree.

In marriage there is either setting aside the first wife (which has been done and mentioned by characters) and there is polygamy (which was not practiced in the Seven Kingdoms since the time of the dragons):

The case for setting a wife aside and taking a new one has the same textual basis as polygamy does: None....

The former causes less complicaations and has been practiced and referenced in recent times.

[Fred of Ashai]

You are selectively remembering what Barristan thinks. How about the whole quote in context?

No, I am not. Rhaegar's wife has no more right to King's guard protection than Rhaegar's mistress unless someone gives the appropriate order. That is absolutely clear from Barristan's thoughts, so if Rhaegar jad the power to extend King's guard protection to Lyanna, he had that power regardless of whether he was married to her or not.

Similarly, if he lacked the power to give King's guard protection to his mistress, he also lacked the power to give it to his wife.

[Fred of Ashai]

You are selectively remembering what Barristan thinks. How about the whole quote in context?

I will do it for you:

Barristan, page 737, A Dance with Dragons:

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater or lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their side.

Good. This illustrates my point exactly -- whoever it was who gave King's guard protection to Lyanna had the power to do that regardless of whether she was a wife or a mistress.

[MtnLion]

Good. This illustrates my point exactly -- whoever it was who gave King's guard protection to Lyanna had the power to do that regardless of whether she was a wife or a mistress.

So, explain why they remain when there is a threat to Viserys? The first sentence, the first duty. Barristan does not directly think of Daenerys' lover; he does think that he would have not choice but to protect her husband if she ordered it, but the lack of thought on that line speaks volumes, also the disdain he thinks about extending protection outside of the direct royal family.

[Fred of Ashai]

So, explain why they remain when there is a threat to Viserys?

Okay. Meanwhile, do you have a theory that explains why they protected Lyanna while Aerys was still alive if Aerys didn't tell them to do that?

I think they did not go to Viserys because they had been ordered to give King's guard protection to a royal mistress (all 3 of them) and they could not leave her.

I also think that the moment Aerys died, she became a valuable hostage, just like both Elia and Sansa. They had a duty to protect the royal family from "harm or threat" and the best way to do that was to secure the hostage.

I think that just like when King Maekar died, it was unclear who the next Targaryen king would be. If Jon was in the Tower, whether he was legitimate or not, he would have some claim. Especially if Viserys died. So they would protect him even if he was a bastard.

Finally, what was the threat to Viserys? Viserys was very safe, at least until Stannis could build a fleet.

[MtnLion]

No, I am not. Rhaegar's wife has no more right to King's guard protection than Rhaegar's mistress unless someone gives the appropriate order. That is absolutely clear from Barristan's thoughts, so if Rhaegar jad the power to extend King's guard protection to Lyanna, he had that power regardless of whether he was married to her or not.

Similarly, if he lacked the power to give King's guard protection to his mistress, he also lacked the power to give it to his wife.

The point is that he had that power over the Lord Commander. Hightower is not going to guard Rhaegar's mistress. If you think otherwise, you are going to need to show in Hightower's profile he would. I believe that it was a combination of things that made Hightower oblige, Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, Lyanna was under threat from Aerys and the rebellion, and Rhaegar explained the need to keep the secret by having him stay behind.

[MtnLion]

Okay. Meanwhile, do you have a theory that explains why they protected Lyanna while Aerys was still alive if Aerys didn't tell them to do that?

I think they did not go to Viserys because they had been ordered to give King's guard protection to a royal mistress (all 3 of them) and they could not leave her.

Dayne and Whent are obviously under Rhaegar's command they could easily be ordered to guard the tower, until his death is known, which would relieve them if they were so inclined. The three Kingsguard didn't go to Viserys because they had a king to guard at the tower. The Lord Commander agrees, and they all mention their vow, and harken back to Barristan, "The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat." It is as plain as the nose on your face.

[MtnLion]

Finally, what was the threat to Viserys? Viserys was very safe, at least until Stannis could build a fleet.

The mere fact that his whereabouts were known by the leaders of the rebellion is a threat to Viserys' safety. That he is without Kingsguard protection is another threat to his safety. The leaders of the rebellion have done some very atrocious things, and could they send a catspaw to Dragonstone? Certainly.

[Fred of Ashai]

Dayne and Whent are obviously under Rhaegar's command they could easily be ordered to guard the tower, until his death is known, which would relieve them if they were so inclined. The three Kingsguard didn't go to Viserys because they had a king to guard at the tower. The Lord Commander agrees, and they all mention their vow, and harken back to Barristan, "The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat." It is as plain as the nose on your face.

You don't think that taking a few days to secure Ned's sister/Robert's fiancé as a hostage is a better way to protect Viserys from a "threat" than going immediately to Dragonstone, where he has Willem Darry and the houses sworn to Deagonstone protecting him?

Also, do you think the two King's guards who let Aegon II flee to Dragonstone without them were oathbreakers?

[The guy from the Vale]

You don't think that taking a few days to secure Ned's sister/Robert's fiancé as a hostage is a better way to protect Viserys from a "threat" than going immediately to Dragonstone, where he has Willem Darry and the houses sworn to Deagonstone protecting him?

Also, do you think the two King's guards who let Aegon II flee to Dragonstone without them were oathbreakers?

That would be a point fi there was only one KG who had to decide what to do. But they were three. They could easily split up to accomplish both - secure Ned's sister while one of them heads to Dragonstone asap. Curiously, they didn't do that.

[Ygrain]

Varys is an intriguing personality. I just don't believe that he knows who Jon really is. Lyanna had a touch of the wolf in her, too. Rhaegar's actions may have been forced by Lyanna's demands. I agree that he would make deliberated plans.

Oh, neither do I! I just think that he made use of Lyanna's abduction to undermine the Targaryen dynasty, not that he was privy to the information about Jon.