will LF give sansa some sort of seduction training?

[SpringKing]

And what framework would that be? I am still struggling to understand how you define "negligence". And I am still trying to find out, in plain English, when you think that lying is justified. I think I have made it plain that I have categorically rejected your "law of unintended consequences" approach.

GRRM confirms his use of the law of unintended consequences in the recently published Rolling Stone interview:

"...Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass; it was the law of unintended consequences..."

[OldGimletEye]

GRRM confirms his use of the law of unintended consequences in the recently published Rolling Stone interview:

"...Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass; it was the law of unintended consequences..."

Ok. Once again, I have never been in denial about the concept of "unintended consequences". I don't need you or Martin to explain the concept to me. I am well aware of the idea. I did take courses in econ, where the concept gets some exposure, long before I ever read ASOIAF.

As I wrote some time ago:

"I have never been in denial about "unintended consequences". Its not like you're Dave Ricardo explaining to me how the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act made the Great Depression worse."

Let it go.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think its a possibility because of

1. LF is a whorehouse Tycoon, he knows his stuff

2. Cersei had mentioned "the weapon between your legs" to her before," and I think it could be taken as foreshadowing.

How old would Sansa be now? 15?

And Sansa was horrified and told herself she would never be like Cersei.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

And Sansa was horrified and told herself she would never be like Cersei.

Unfortunately not many realize that Sansa is being set to be the antithesis of Cersei.

[juanml82]

And Sansa was horrified and told herself she would never be like Cersei.

This is the relevant quote from the ASOIAFverse

Enough drink will make blind washerwomen and reeking pig girls seem as comely as you, sweetling.

“Me?”

“Try not to sound so like a mouse, Sansa. You’re a woman now, remember? And betrothed to my firstborn.” The queen sipped at her wine. “Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I’d have a better chance of seducing his horse.” She noticed the look on Sansa’s face, and laughed. “Have I shocked you, my lady?” She leaned close. “You little fool. Tears are not a woman’s only weapon. You’ve got another one between your legs, and you’d best learn to use it. You’ll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords.”

Sansa was spared the need to reply when two Kettleblacks reentered the hall. Ser Osmund and his brothers had become great favorites about the castle;

So, when did she think she would never be like Cersei? This?

“The night’s first traitors,” the queen said, “but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning.” As they left, she turned to Sansa. “Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you’ll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.”

“I will remember, Your Grace,” said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people’s loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me.

First, she probably misheard, because Catelyn tells Robb

Catelyn sighed. “I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. The day will come when you need them to respect you, even fear you a little. Laughter is poison to fear. I will not do that to you, much as I might wish to keep you safe.”

Second, that's a while after she had this conversation with Cersei

“And who will protect us from my guards?” The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. “Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They’ll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washer women, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn’t, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there’s such a dearth of good sacking songs.”

“True knights would never harm women and children.” The words rang hollow in her ears even as she said them.

“True knights.” The queen seemed to find that wonderfully amusing. “No doubt you’re right. So why don’t you just eat your broth like a good girl and wait for Symeon Star-Eyes and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight to come rescue you, sweetling. I’m sure it won’t be very long now.”

So, not only she doesn't think she would never be like Cersei but that she rather make people love her as opposed of fearing them - which is a misreading of Machiavello and against Catelyn's lessons to Robb - but she said so while she still was "that stupid girl" - her own thoughts - so we should very well doubt that TWOW Sansa will still think that, as we should doubt that Sansa is a beacon of hope in the belief that there is a fairy tale written instead of smashed by GRRM's pen.

[mambru]

“I will remember, Your Grace,” said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people’s loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I’ll make them love me.

First, she probably misheard, because Catelyn tells Robb

Catelyn sighed. “I should. You ought never have left. Yet I dare not, not now. You have come too far. Someday these lords will look to you as their liege. If I pack you off now, like a child being sent to bed without his supper, they will remember, and laugh about it in their cups. The day will come when you need them to respect you, even fear you a little. Laughter is poison to fear. I will not do that to you, much as I might wish to keep you safe.”

You think Catalyn ever told SANSA that particular tip? Really? Does it sound like the kind of advice she'd ever dole out to her sheltered princess, raised to be a gracious lady, not a threatening harridan? From your own quote, it doesn't even sound like Catalyn ever even told ROBB this advice before - let alone Sansa.

[juanml82]

You think Catalyn ever told SANSA that particular tip? Really? Does it sound like the kind of advice she'd ever dole out to her sheltered princess, raised to be a gracious lady, not a threatening harridan? From your own quote, it doesn't even sound like Catalyn ever even told ROBB this advice before - let alone Sansa.

She probably didn't, maybe thinking it would be a great way to make sure she was as unprepared for the real world as possible. What I was referring wasn't necessarily that Sansa was sitting in front of Catelyn when her mother instructed her in the finer points of ruling and understood the lesson wrong but rather the belief sometimes mentioned in this forum that Sansa, as daughter of the good Starks, would somehow heed to her paternal education in this subject, when Catelyn "Useless Mouths" Stark would have probably agreed with Cersei in that particular issue.

[voodooqueen126]

More relevant to discuss the thematic similarity between Cersei's incest and Alayne's blossoming pseudo-incest with her father.

Good point. Sansa negligently "blurts" Arya has the traitor's blood. not me. im good. Negligence, as in willfull absence of foresight, is at the root of all of Sansa's misdeeds. She doesnt anticipate the consequences of the offhand lie that she loves riding. She doesnt forsee that "I dont remember" will result in a judicial tie between Arya's and Joff's accounts, allowing Cersei to be the tiebreaker, and execute Lady. She doesnt expect that betraying Ned to Cersei will have such dire repercussions. She surely doesnt give much thought to the maester's concern for the fatal effects of sweetsleep. Overall, Sansa continually neglects substantive reflection on her share of responsibility in causing these events.

That the law of unintended consequences will inevitably bite, is the ironic intent to the repeated line that "If a lie was kindly meant, there was no harm in it." This may as well be considered Sansa's personal motto.

Just began reading Hannah Arendt' Eichmann in Jerusalem... Many of your criticism's seem to imply that Sansa is evil because she is thoughtless...

[RavenKing23]

Sansa screwing LF? I dig that. And by screwing I mean subject 1 inserting a dagger into subject 2s F'in face. There, intimate as a kiss and sexually charged if she enjoys it. Theres the controversal chapter for you

[The Mother of The Others]

Regarding the whole "seduction" topic - I'm thinking Sansa would deliberately reject the "seduction" approach of manipulating men purely with sex-appeal. That's Cersei's approach - Cersei's advice to use the weapon she has between her legs to get what she wants. And IMO, she would be right. Cersei's tactics come up short... men bought with sex don't stay bought. And Sansa will be better off learning to bind people with more tricky and complex (but durable) emotional ties.

Unfortunately not many realize that Sansa is being set to be the antithesis of Cersei.

Peter is a politician & merchant: he'd craft a better "product" than Cersei, and he'd know how to brand Sansa as a far better queen. Cersei is the competitor he'll have just brought down, so no he's not going to replace her with another just like her. He'll also be baking with better ingredients--a Northern princess who has real character and empathy with the people. Any training in seductiveness wouldn't be aimed at actually bedding someone--it'd be done to turn her into a "fully operational battle station" in Star Wars terms---so that she's using her charms and not just standing there like a lump letting opportunites to influence people escape her.

assuming his plans come to fruition at all:

People and loyalty will flock to Sansa once he puts her on display in a very carefully chosen situation that cries out for a groundswell of public support. ("Good lighting" in hollywood terms). It'll be like the response Obama got during his first campaign when he was a sensation. Because Pete will be putting on a masterful show tailored to play well with the masses. And the best way to fool people is to not lie to them. So Sansa with her innate goodness will come across as better than Cersei because she really is, and she's been schooled by Cersei in how not to be. The public perception that the realm now has a better queen wouldn't be a deception----it'd be a performance like any political figure puts on for the crowds: not done to cover up anything horrible (she's NOT Cersei 2.0), rather the performance will be intended to augment the mere human Sansa into a bigger-than-life public figure. This Ultra Sansa can then cash in all her gravitas to make things happen, because lords will want to perform admirably for such a queen they're legitimately impressed by, and this outweighs the "loyalty" you get from bribing sellswords, etc.

All of this will happen based on LF's shrewd advice and timely whispers, peppered with Sansa's genuine ad-libs that "seem" heartfelt because they are.

Sansa screwing LF? I dig that. And by screwing I mean subject 1 inserting a dagger into subject 2s F'in face. There, intimate as a kiss and sexually charged if she enjoys it. Theres the controversal chapter for you

The comment is as blunt as the dagger is sharp! This may also happen when the behind the scenes Peter isn't as awesome of a guy to have around as the public persona Peter. There will probably be two plotlines going on in the Sansa POVs---the public show and the private reality of who Pete really is and how he's licking her elbows or however sugar daddies try to get you primed. When the two realities become too much at odds with one another, Sansa will probably choose to drop the secret life in favor of truly becoming the preferable good queen "act."

(Well, that's how I'd do it. In the books, everyone will probably just die prematurely, and that'll be that.)

[The Dragons Hand]

I imagine Petyr Baelish as the spy in the Team Fortress 2 short "Expiration date."

Petyr: *Pushes a cart of items towards Sansa* "Seduce me."

Sansa: "What? Petyr, I'm not going to-"

Petyr: "Seduce me!"

Sansa: "Alright, jeez." *Scans the cart and picks up two lemon cakes* "Greetings, my lord. I-" *Gets backhanded*

Petyr: "I am not one of your lemoncake pretty boys! I like my women, dangerous, mysterious, provacative! You want to be my lover?! Earn it. SEDUCE ME!"

*Enter training montage*