Are Cersei and Jamie Bastard Children of the Mad King?

[The Third Eye]

You're right that they would be Waters as far as name goes, but we seem to be dealing with a magical bloodline in the Targs (as in the Starks) which is probably why this gets so much debate. I doubt anyone would be interested in discussing whether any of the Lannister children are half Hornwood, for example. :D

ETA: also being half-Targ would give anyone a (highly debatable) claim to the throne. Even the Baratheons claim the throne in part because of their own Targaryen ancestry.

1. IMO, there is a big difference between being half-targaryan and being bastard targaryan...

2. I'm still not convinced that there's anything magical about the Targaryans ( = any Targaryan) That Daenerys Targaryan is special, however, is something, I'd never doubt. Same goes for the Starks. Not every Stark is special. But these six Stark children are/were

[ShaggyCat]

A fascination with fire/wildfire isn't genetic. Arson doesn't run in families. So Cersei's reaction to the wildfire and the burning of the Hand's Tower are not really good evidence.

I do love the irony of it where Tywin is concerned though. Just as with the Tyrion Targ theories, we'll have to wait and see.

Cersai's fascination with the Fire she has lit I read as another example of her descent into madness. In the real world, pyromania can be a major warning sign for psychiatric illness, like a cluster a personality disorder (to me, Cersai is a classic narcissistic personality disorder) There is something to be said for her subconsciously trying to emulate the Targs because of her fascination with the former royal family and Rhaegar.

Agree with the irony point though. I think/hope it's unlikely but it would be sweet irony if only Tyrion is Tywin's true born heir.

If this theory is true, and I think it's a big if, I don't think we need a love story. Wasn't there mention of Aerys trying to press prima nocta in order to get Joanna Lannister into his bed?

[Buried Treasure]

Wasn't there mention of Aerys trying to press prima nocta in order to get Joanna Lannister into his bed?

No there was not.

Barristan said that Aerys made a bad jest lamenting that First Night was no longer a thing. That's very different from trying to enforce it.

[Castellan]

of all the silly theories this one used to annoy me most, because it robs Jaime Cersei and Tyrion of their essential 'Lannister' ness which GRRM lays on thick and which is interesting; and writes over the interesting Lannister family psychology and conflicts storyline with some cheap trick.

but you read these boards long enough and up starts to seem like down so I am prepared to consider the possibility.

i think GRRM has put in a little hint by mentioning Aerys' lust for Joanne and I think that its a red herring, but if not:

Cersei and Jaime's fabulous appearance and Jaime's skills could be a targ inheritence

their relationship becomes culturally acceptable

Aerys's desire to use Jaime as a hostage acquires other overtones (if Aerys suspected they were his)

Aerys sending away Jaime from Harrenhal likewise - is it sending the bastard away so he can't outshine his true born brother?

Aerys' demanding Jaime cut off his father's head likewise, overtones

above all, Jaime has unknowingly killed his father

Tommen and Myrcella, like their parents, are half Targ, like Aegon if he is real, and JonCon

Only Dany has more Targ genes.

but, I don't believe it.

[niamh]

That night he dreamt that he was back in the Great Sept of Baelor, still standing vigil over his father's corpse. The sept was still and dark, until a woman emerged from the shadows and walked slowly to the bier. "Sister!" he said.

But it was not Cersei. She was all in grey, a silent sister. A hood and veil concealed her features, but he could see the candles burning in the green pools of her eyes. "Sister," he said, "what would you have of me?" His last word echoed up and down the sept. Mememememememememememe.

"I am not your sister, Jaime." She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. "Have you forgotten me?"

Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long...

"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly." Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. "He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most."

"Who are you?" He had to hear her say it.

"The question is, who are you?"

"This is a dream."

"Is it?" She smiled sadly. "Count your hands, child."

One. One hand clasped tightly around the sword hilt. Only one. "In my dreams I always have two hands." He raised his right hand and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of the stump.

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed his son was a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

"I am a knight," he told her. "and Cersei is a queen."

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but she was already moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

Just realised that's his mother in the dream. A bit slow on the uptake, that's me

[HexMachina]

My biggest problem with this theory: why would Joanna keep a child she knows is from Aerys raping her? She could have taken moon tea.

[mb2518]

Cersei was getting turned on by the fire, much like Aerys did after a burning. She also filled the council with young, fresh faces, much like Aerys did. I think Tywin's whoring went on for much longer than we were told. In fact, the latest sample chapter from TWOW reveals that Tywin took trips to Lys when he was Hand. Joanna probably realized what was going on, she did catch the twins in the act after all.

[Osha13]

In my opinion, it is more plausible then Tyrion. The incest at such a young age raises red flags. Jaime's dream/vision in Riverrun. I never picked up on what the fool said in Renly's camp, but that is very interesting to note that the fool calls Jaime "kinslayer". Even though they are fools, OFTEN times they are the smartest ones.

It would make more sense why Joffrey was like a little mad king ordering Ned Starks head off his shoulders and not thinking about the consequences, kind of like when the mad king killed Ned's father and brother. It would make more sense why Cersei seemed so turned on by the tower of the hand engulfed in flames. I could see this going either way whether it's true or not, but there are legitimate arguments for this theory.