MyaStoned Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 The idea that Ned's execution was legal and he was a legally convicted traitor is rich. As book readers we know what Ned knew - that Joffrey was not legally the king. Besides that, Ned had the legal order from the previous king, which Cersei and Joff ignored. Ned is never LEGALLY guilty of anything. Which is why there's that whole war thing, and all those books. Cersei and Joffrey tear up the law to steal the throne, after which anything goes. Not sure how a reader could miss that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Re: Arya being "just a girl" or "just a stray Stark" - as far as she knows she is _the_ Stark, the only one alive. Frankly, I suspect that if it had been Bran or Rickon (!) who killed Dareon, some readers would have been falling all over themselves praising them... Nice off-hand bringing in the sexism card there. And no, as far as Arya knows, Sansa is still alive and well. It is far from the only answer. People "wanted dead or alive" were sometimes brought in alive IRL, But they weren't "wanted dead or alive". Show me a quote that says as much. They were supposed to be "taken", which indicates they were wanted alive, for the Lord Paramount to give the King's justice (directly stated as "awaiting the King's justice" in the text, which I referred to). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyaStoned Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Nice off-hand bringing in the sexism card there. And no, as far as Arya knows, Sansa is still alive and well. Arya can have no idea whether or not Sansa's alive at that point, let alone 'well'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Arya can have no idea whether or not Sansa's alive at that point, let alone 'well'. Sansa was fine the last time Arya knew, and she's heard nothing otherwise. The natural assumption then is that she's still alive. Anyway, the post I responded said that Arya "knows" that she's the last Stark, and that is certainly not a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Why are we still talking about Arya? I thought it was clear that Arya should not have been the one to kill him as it is not her place nor her duty. Besides the point Dareon had it coming. As soon as Sam reported to Jon he (Dareon) had deserted Jon would have had to issue an official decree and/or bounty calling for his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Why are we still talking about Arya? I thought it was clear that Arya should not have been the one to kill him as it is not her place nor her duty. Apparently, there are a few who think Arya has some divine right putting her above and beyond such petty things as laws, jurisdiction and authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 The idea that Ned's execution was legal and he was a legally convicted traitor is rich. As book readers we know what Ned knew - that Joffrey was not legally the king. Besides that, Ned had the legal order from the previous king, which Cersei and Joff ignored. Ned is never LEGALLY guilty of anything. Which is why there's that whole war thing, and all those books. Cersei and Joffrey tear up the law to steal the throne, after which anything goes. Not sure how a reader could miss that. Joffrey is (or was) the legal King. He was the one sitting on the throne wearing the crown, the one receiving fealty, and the one Robert designated his successor. And as far as Westeros (including Joffrey himself) knows, the rumour about his parentage is just that: a rumour. As for Ned, he swore that Joffrey was the rightful King, in public (yes, we know it's coerced, but so was Dareon's), and moreover confessed treason. What does one do with confessed traitors? The same as what one does with Nights Watch deserters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyaStoned Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Sansa was fine the last time Arya knew, and she's heard nothing otherwise. The natural assumption then is that she's still alive. Really? You think that's the natural assumption in ASOIAF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Really? You think that's the natural assumption in ASOIAF? Yes. Yes, I do. Catelyn assumed the girls were alive, though she'd had no word about them. Robb assumed Ned was alive up until he heard about the execution. And so on. Show me an example of people assuming otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Joffrey is (or was) the legal King. He was the one sitting on the throne wearing the crown, the one receiving fealty, and the one Robert designated his successor. And as far as Westeros (including Joffrey himself) knows, the rumour about his parentage is just that: a rumour. As for Ned, he swore that Joffrey was the rightful King, in public (yes, we know it's coerced, but so was Dareon's), and moreover confessed treason. What does one do with confessed traitors? The same as what one does with Nights Watch deserters. Gotta agree with this. As soon as Ned confessed it became lawful. If he had instead denounced Joffery as the spawn of the Incestuous lust of Jaime and Cersie and not the rightful King of Westeros, Joffery would have still been in the right because he is the king. but his action would have been seen as him silencing someone who was against him. Someone who publicly denounced the Lannisters years ago for the Sack of Kingslanding. A man who fought against the Targs, won, and then went back to the cold North and did not meddle in the affairs of other realms. When Stannis makes his claim people would be more inclined to believe him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyaStoned Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Joffrey is (or was) the legal King. He was the one sitting on the throne wearing the crown, the one receiving fealty, and the one Robert designated his successor. And as far as Westeros (including Joffrey himself) knows, the rumour about his parentage is just that: a rumour. As for Ned, he swore that Joffrey was the rightful King, in public (yes, we know it's coerced, but so was Dareon's), and moreover confessed treason. What does one do with confessed traitors? The same as what one does with Nights Watch deserters. You are incorrect. About all of it. Which is inexcusable for someone who presumably has read the books. There's really no excuse for a booke reader to be posting as if he's in-story, and has limited knowledge or a bias, in-story. We know everything. The last legal word in King's Landing is torn up by Cersei and disregarded. It named Ned to power (for the moment) and had nothing to do with Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyaStoned Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Yes. Yes, I do. Catelyn assumed the girls were alive, though she'd had no word about them. Robb assumed Ned was alive up until he heard about the execution. And so on. Show me an example of people assuming otherwise. Robb and Cat are dead (for all Arya knows), and the North's war is over. Sansa has no value as a hostage. Arya may also know that she's missing from KL. There is no reason to assume she would assume Sansa alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 It is far from the only answer. People "wanted dead or alive" were sometimes brought in alive IRL, after all, despite the easier option of legally killing them. Since we didn't hear anything about anybody at the holdfast being wounded or killed and we know that Gared was an experienced and dangerous fighter, I imagine that they somehow got a drop on him and captured him without struggle. Not everybody can kill a man in cold blood. And also, people may have been disquieted by Gared's rants about the Others and wights and thought that it was something that their lord needed to hear. More fool they, of course, since Ned sent Gared's head to the Wall, but didn't bother to report his words to Mormont. Finally, it was a holdfast less than a day's ride away from Winterfell. If it was a few days/weeks travel from any lordly seat, who knows if they would have bothered to fetch a lord for dealing with a NW deserter? Re: Arya being "just a girl" or "just a stray Stark" - as far as she knows she is _the_ Stark, the only one alive. Frankly, I suspect that if it had been Bran or Rickon (!) who killed Dareon, some readers would have been falling all over themselves praising them... Again, if just anyone can kill a Nights Watch deserter, what do you do with people who are wrongly accused? What if an average person minding their own business gets their head chopped off by vigilantes for wearing a black cloak? Or what if someone thinks Yoren is a deserter? You need access to a Lord, who can verify the facts, because otherwise you've got a recipe for chaos. Unless the deserter is going bush, I'd also doubt it'd take weeks to get to a lord's seat. Being caught means coming into contact with people, and where there's people, there's some means of contacting someone in authority (even if it's very minor authority) within a few days. Otherwise, how can a lord interact with (let alone protect) their peasants at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 He deserved to die, but I don't blame him for running, Jon was pretty dumb for sending a guy, who obliviously did not want to be in the watch to the most awesome place in Planetos, to recruit people to serve as sexless border men for another country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 You are incorrect. About all of it. Which is inexcusable for someone who presumably has read the books. There's really no excuse for a booke reader to be posting as if he's in-story, and has limited knowledge or a bias, in-story. We know everything. The last legal word in King's Landing is torn up by Cersei and disregarded. It named Ned to power (for the moment) and had nothing to do with Joffrey. Oh for goodness sake. The legal King is the one recognised as such. And Joffrey is recognised as such, just like Robert before him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 You are incorrect. About all of it. Which is inexcusable for someone who presumably has read the books. There's really no excuse for a booke reader to be posting as if he's in-story, and has limited knowledge or a bias, in-story. We know everything. The last legal word in King's Landing is torn up by Cersei and disregarded. It named Ned to power (for the moment) and had nothing to do with Joffrey. We actually have precedent where the Will of the King is not recognized and subverted by the then Queen Mother with the Dance of the Dragons. While Robert's Will should have been enforced the Queen Mother decided nope screw that noise and declared her offspring the king. Ned should have been 100% sure he had the power to enforce the Will of Robert before that morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Remember when Ned rebelled against Aerys? Totally illegal stuff, according to all of the "Law is the law" people here he deserved to die for it, period. What about hiding Jon Snow from Robert? Another treason, so he deserved death twice. What a horrible person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 What about hiding Jon Snow from Robert? Another treason, so he deserved death twice. What a horrible person. Well, that depends on whether Jon is who most think he is. If he's just Ned's bastard, no treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Just ask Viserys Targaryen how it felt to be the lawful King of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Remember when Ned rebelled against Aerys? Totally illegal stuff, according to all of the "Law is the law" people here he deserved to die for it, period. What about hiding Jon Snow from Robert? Another treason, so he deserved death twice. What a horrible person.Aerys broke the bond between lord and king, but Jon was his truly only sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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