Did Dareon deserve to die?

[Lointain]

I believe that Dareon was innocent of the crime he was acused, and for what was sent to The Wall.

And if a person is forced to do something (the Oath of the NW)because he was unjustly treated and the other option is even worst, i think that Dareon was unjustly condemned to the NW and unjustly murdered by Arya.

[Cas Stark]

Let me remind you of Eddard's words: "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die."

In whose name is Arya doing the killing ? By what Authority ? Is she Lady of Winterfell ? Is she Warden of the north ? No. She is none of these things. She has no authority whatsoever. All she has is the last name Stark, which doesn't give her the right to do jack squat.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't believe that only a Warden could kill a NW deserter, that would leave only 4 lords plus the king who could order an execution. It would be stupid if Manderly caught a NW deserter in White Harbor or the Umbers caught one and weren't authorized to kill him, and since we see that he's freely authorized to kill Davos, it's reasonable that at the very least, lords could execute NW deserters.

[JesterX]

didn't the hound told Arya that he should have raped Sansa before leaving her for Tyrion?... I think she knows that Sansa is alive at least...

Good point.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Cas,

You seem to be focused on the wrong issue. Local lords probably did have the authority to dispense the "King's Justice". That is beside the point.

Arya was not on Stark lands and acted in a manner her father would never have condoned. Ned, as I said before, spoke with the accused where the accused had full knowledge of what he was accused of, Ned's role, and the potetial penalty.

None of that was true when Arya murdered Dareon.

[Lord Reaver]

Maybe, maybe not. I don't believe that only a Warden could kill a NW deserter, that would leave only 4 lords plus the king who could order an execution.

What you believe is fairly irrelevant. I can back up my statements with textual references. Can you ?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LR,

Respectfully, you are infering a lot from not much. When The World of Ice and Fire comes out in November I imagine we'll know for certain what a "Wardens" roll is. Given the size of the 7 kingdoms and the fact that there are only 4 Wardens I strongly suspect their role is military, not Judicial.

[Chebyshov]

I don't think Arya felt she had any legal authority to kill him, I just think it fit into her warped sense of "justice" and "honor." To her, she sees a deserter, who specifically deserted Jon (she knew he was LC at this point) and she was angry. In her subjective view, he "deserved" to die. Not that debating the technicalities of who should execute deserters isn't a good exercise, I just think it's a touch moot in the context of Arya killing him.

[Cas Stark]

What you believe is fairly irrelevant. I can back up my statements with textual references. Can you ?

I gave you the example of Manderly "executing" Davos. So, are you saying you think that a lord can execute the envoy of another high lord, but he can't execute a NW deserter? Not everything has to be spelled out exactly in the text. 2+2=4. We see other lords punish and execute people. It is common sense then that a lord can execute an NW deserter because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.

[Lord Reaver]

LR,

Respectfully, you are infering a lot from not much. When The World of Ice and Fire comes out in November I imagine we'll know for certain what a "Wardens" roll is. Given the size of the 7 kingdoms and the fact that there are only 4 Wardens I strongly suspect their role is military, not Judicial.

Warden role notwitstanding, my post #169 shows that Gared is held "awaiting the King's Justice". Any man, boy, woman or girl cannot dispense that. Arya cannot dispense that.

[Lord Reaver]

I gave you the example of Manderly "executing" Davos. So, are you saying you think that a lord can execute the envoy of another high lord, but he can't execute a NW deserter? Not everything has to be spelled out exactly in the text. 2+2=4. We see other lords punish and execute people. It is common sense then that a lord can execute an NW deserter because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.

Is Arya in any way, shape or form a Lord (or Lady, as may be) ?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LR,

Oh, I agree with you on that score. I simply think it would be highly impractical for there to be only 5 Judges (including the King) on a continent the size of Westeros.

[JesterX]

LR,

Respectfully, you are infering a lot from not much. When The World of Ice and Fire comes out in November I imagine we'll know for certain what a "Wardens" roll is. Given the size of the 7 kingdoms and the fact that there are only 4 Wardens I strongly suspect their role is military, not Judicial.

But even in a military role, the NW is a military (or at least, paramilitary) organization. It would seem that would still give the "warden" authority to execute a deserter.

[Lord Reaver]

LR,

Oh, I agree with you on that score. I simply think it would be highly impractical for there to be only 5 Judges (including the King) on a continent the size of Westeros.

Clearly, other lords uphold the King's Justice, we have examples of Lord Tarly doing just that.

That's beside the point here, though, since Arya isn't one.

[Cas Stark]

Cas,

You seem to be focused on the wrong issue. Local lords probably did have the authority to dispense the "King's Justice". That is beside the point.

Arya was not on Stark lands and acted in a manner her father would never have condoned. Ned, as I said before, spoke with the accused where the accused had full knowledge of what he was accused of, Ned's role, and the potetial penalty.

None of that was true when Arya murdered Dareon.

I'm just playing devil's advocate really, since I find the ideas that people have put forward about the legal framework that exists are absurd, as if there is some kind of extradition process for criminals or that Braavos...home of the international assassin cult...is some kind of paragon of justice. We see that "justice" and "the law" is whatever it is in a given place at a given time. If Eddard Stark is your lord, then you may get justice. If it's Tywin Lannister, not so much. If you're in Slaver's Bay all bets are off.

Of course her father would never approve of what she did. She slit his throat. She never even tells him for what she is killing him. It's vigilante justice. That doesn't mean that if I was a lawyer in Essos or Westeros I couldn't make a case for the legality of what she did based on who she is, because it can be made. That's my only point really.

[Lord Reaver]

I'm just playing devil's advocate really, since I find the ideas that people have put forward about the legal framework that exists are absurd, as if there is some kind of extradition process for criminals or that Braavos...home of the international assassin cult...is some kind of paragon of justice. We see that "justice" and "the law" is whatever it is in a given place at a given time. If Eddard Stark is your lord, then you may get justice. If it's Tywin Lannister, not so much. If you're in Slaver's Bay all bets are off.

Of course her father would never approve of what she did. She slit his throat. She never even tells him for what she is killing him. It's vigilante justice. That doesn't mean that if I was a lawyer in Essos or Westeros I couldn't make a case for the legality of what she did based on who she is, because it can be made. That's my only point really.

Wait, you find the ideas other people have put forward about the legal framework absurd, yet you present yourself as a lawyer ? Have we seen many of those in the books ?

[LordStoneheart]

Is Arya in any way, shape or form a Lord (or Lady, as may be) ?

No. She's a princess, actually.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Cas,

That's because there are two different frameworks. Law and Power. Ned operated as the Law dictated he may. Tywin did too, sometimes. Tywin also operated as his power allowed him to operate. Arya was operating like Tywin not Ned based on power, not law.

[El Guapo]

I gave you the example of Manderly "executing" Davos. So, are you saying you think that a lord can execute the envoy of another high lord, but he can't execute a NW deserter? Not everything has to be spelled out exactly in the text. 2+2=4. We see other lords punish and execute people. It is common sense then that a lord can execute an NW deserter because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.

Actually he was going to execute a traitor to the realm, legally speaking of course.

[Cas Stark]

Actually he was going to execute a traitor to the realm, legally speaking of course.

Well, except that the boy king is a fraud, and thus, his rule is illegal and illegitimate, but otherwise sure. It goes to show that the law in Westeros is what you make it. Robb Stark was King in the North but in the South he was a rebel. Tommen "Baratheon" is King even though he has no rightful claim and both his parents should be executed for treason due to his exiistance. Vicerys was the rightful King of Westeros, but that didn't protect him from his golden crown.

[Pod The Impaler]

C'mon . . . He did his duty for the Night's Watch. Nobody ever questioned his service. Which is why Jon rewarded him with Yoren's old recruiters position. Who's to say he wouldn't have realized his duty after wilding out in Braavos for a bit and commenced collecting rejects for the wall. He didn't deserve to die.

Dareon was not only willingly and clearly deserting, but made it very clear he was not going back, ever. Made it clear to Sam, and - not knowing who she was - the Arya.

Aside from the fact that he was doing this, he was willing to squander the meager resources he had available to satisfy himself. He endangered the overall mission, including the lives of Sam, Maester Aemon, and also Gilly and her child. He didn't just desert, he abandoned them to their fate, so he could go off to live the high life. The mission Jon gave him was not exactly the worst duty in the Watch either - travel the Realm and recruit people, spending hardly any time at the Wall. What he did, he did for himself.

Arya gave him the chance to redeem himself; she looked into his eyes and heard his last word, and then she who passed the sentence swung the sword.