[Book Spoilers] Cersei as a Rape Victim: How Does her Experience Inform our Opinions Westerosi Society?

[krtmd]

This is sticky territory, IMO. Cersei went willingly to her marriage with Robert, IMO. She wanted to be queen. It comes at a price. OTOH, rape is defined as anytime someone is coerced or forced into an unwanted sexual act - and certainly marital rape is a thing. It may be the price of being Robert's queen, and yes, certainly Cersei needed to maintain an illusion with Robert that they were still having sex (at least through the birth of Tommen) to have her children appear legitimate, but if he forced himself on her, which I certainly read in Cersei's chapters, then she's been raped.

[The Sleeper]

This does not sound like Cersei at all to me. I never once got that feeling about Cersei reading the books.

In regards to everyone else, sure. In regards to Tywin, not so much. She seems to treat him with awe in her thoughts. I don't think she had it in him to defy him openly.

At 15, Cersei stole Tywin's preferred heir out from under his nose. Look at the way she did that:

That is a teenage girl going behind her father's back in an unrelated matter, when it didn't and wouldn't occur to Tywin that she was behind it. I think it is a far cry from standing up to him when he orders her or expects her to do something.

[Ran]

Well, does any man have a real choice in Westeros, then? Do you think Willas or Theon would have been happy to have Cersei for a wife?

And did Robert really consent, as such? As he says, Jon Arryn insisted that he had to do it for the realm. He didn't particularly want it, either, but he was "coerced" by his new occupation to do thing he didn't want to do.

It just doesn't wash to argue about who was more or less coerced. Most everyone noble is coerced in Westeros when it comes to their reproduction rights, because that's the society they live in.

krtmd,

I don't recall any place in the novels where Cersei suggests Robert forced himself on her, nor any place where she actually refused him sexual access. Merely that she would dissemble and avoid, but never outright "no". Why is the onus on Robert to put an end to it? And would Cersei have allowed him to put an end to it, given the crown and Jaime?

[Le Cygne]

That is a teenage girl going behind her father's back in an unrelated matter, when it didn't and wouldn't occur to Tywin that she was behind it. I think it is a far cry from standing up to him when he orders her or expects her to do something.

No, that is a master manipulator. Who got the better of Tywin.

Again, she said no to Tywin. She will not marry again. Loudly. Tyrion took Tywin out for her, but she would have made another move in the game.

Read the way Cersei tells the story of Melara, that's very revealing, too.

[krtmd]

@Ran - I don't recall either that Cersei claims she said "no" to Robert and was ignored, but I also read lots of Cersei's thoughts about being used and having her legs forced apart, etc. that lead me to conclude that she was subjected to unwanted sexual contact with her husband.

"She wondered what it would feel like to suckle on those breasts, to lay the Myrish woman back and push her legs apart and use her as a man would use her, the way Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with hand or mouth.”

"Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between her legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them. The only time he’d ever made her wet was on their wedding night."

"For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. ‘You hurt me,’ she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. ‘It was not me, my lady,’ he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. ‘It was the wine. I drink too much wine.’ To wash down his admission, he reached for a horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard he chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he’d cracked his tooth in a melee. Well, our marriage was a melee, she reflected, so he did not lie.”

"The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her that night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults grew less frequent. During the first year of their marriage he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the dark.”

[The Sleeper]

No, that is a master manipulator. Who got the better of Tywin.

Again, she said no to Tywin. She will not marry again. Loudly. Tyrion took Tywin out for her, but she would have made another move in the game.

Read the way Cersei tells the story of Melara, that's very revealing, too.

Lots of people got the better of Tywin. Repeatedly. In all sorts of things. And who said teenage girls aren't master manipulators?

Seriously, though. It wasn't an action directed against Tywin, though it hurt him grievously. Cersei doesn't exactly think things through, or is much concerned with things that don't directly affect her. It was a wide circumvention of him, instead of just asking him, perhaps if Jaime could visit with them more often or that Lysa wasn't a suitable match for him. The extremity of her action suggests that she knew he would treat any input from her as noise and was terrified of him finding out the true reason, why she wanted Kaime in King's Landing.

To me, saying no to him, sounds like helpless furstration. There is nothing in her POV that suggests she was planning a move against it or that she wouldn't go through with it in the end. In theory, she didn't have to do anything. Tywin couldn't order her to do anything. As regent, she outranked him. Yet, in Cersei's head Tywin is always The authority.

[Ran]

krtmd,

I hardly think pushing someone's legs apart in and of itself means you are forcing yourself on someone.

Her actual complaints to Robert are about the mauling and the like, and not about the sense that she was forced. It's not "Don't do it," it's "Don't do it that way." Quite a large distance between these things.

[Le Cygne]

Lots of people got the better of Tywin. Repeatedly. In all sorts of things. And who said teenage girls aren't master manipulators?

Seriously, though. It wasn't an action directed against Tywin, though it hurt him grievously. Cersei doesn't exactly think things through, or is much concerned with things that don't directly affect her. It was a wide circumvention of him, instead of just asking him, perhaps if Jaime could visit with them more often or that Lysa wasn't a suitable match for him. The extremity of her action suggests that she knew he would treat any input from her as noise and was terrified of him finding out the true reason, why she wanted Kaime in King's Landing.

To me, saying no to him, sounds like helpless furstration. There is nothing in her POV that suggests she was planning a move against it or that she wouldn't go through with it in the end. In theory, she didn't have to do anything. Tywin couldn't order her to do anything. As regent, she outranked him. Yet, in Cersei's head Tywin is always The authority.

Teenage girls? Why do you keep bringing that up? And I'd imagine no better than teenage boys. Let's not go there.

I mentioned her age to show the skill she showed even then.

Cersei robbed Tywin Lannister of his heir! Jaime is his golden boy. This is huge to Tywin. This would be huge to anyone. She pulled this off masterfully. This took a lot of thought. And it wasn't just about sex to Cersei. Look who is heir to Casterly Rock now. And nothing in her POVs or any others to show she doesn't make moves? She's playing the game from the moment we meet her in the books.

[Ran]

She can hardly rob Tywin of someone who willingly left his inheritance behind; at most we can say that Jaime robbed his father of his heir.

And there's no evidence at all anywhere that she did it as some masterstroke to become heir to the Rock. I don't think she had that sort of forethought.

[Winter's Knight]

krtmd,

I hardly think pushing someone's legs apart in and of itself means you are forcing yourself on someone.

Her actual complaints to Robert are about the mauling and the like, and not about the sense that she was forced. It's not "Don't do it," it's "Don't do it that way." Quite a large distance between these things.

Yes. Yes, it does.

If you need to force someone's legs apart to have sex with them, then yes you are forcing yourself on them.

I'm flabbergasted that an actual administrator is making such a pathetic argument.

[krtmd]

krtmd,

I hardly think pushing someone's legs apart in and of itself means you are forcing yourself on someone.

Her actual complaints to Robert are about the mauling and the like, and not about the sense that she was forced. It's not "Don't do it," it's "Don't do it that way." Quite a large distance between these things.

Well, it certainly means that someone was unwilling to open said legs on their own, doesn't it?

[Le Cygne]

He's establishing Cersei as a player of the game.

Tywin wants his heir to be Jaime. We're talking the heir to Casterly Rock, a huge estate. This means a lot to Tywin. He wants Jaime, his beloved son, to carry on for him when he's gone. Cersei clearly knows this. She knows what Tywin wants. She knows it's big. She disregards what Tywin wants to get what she wants instead. Does she want Jaime for sex, sure. She also wants him nearby to play him, to get what she wants. We see that she uses him for this purpose throughout the series. To have Jaime placed on the Kingsguard, Cersei plays more than Jaime, she has to, to make a king do something she wants. She sets things in motion, just like Littlefinger. Jaime never would have done this on his own. Cersei plays Jaime, and she plays others, to get what she wants.

Later, when she is told to marry Robert, she goes along with it. She has outplayed Tywin before, but this time she doesn't try. The marriage makes her queen, and from that position, she plays her hand. She chooses to have children with Jaime, not Robert. She has Robert killed. Her children are placed on the throne. She's Queen Regent. When Tywin wants Cersei to marry again, she clearly doesn't want to. She doesn't go along with it. She says, loudly, I will not marry againI She tries to play Jaime again, scheming to avoid the marriage. This is in opposition to what Tywin wants, once again. That he dies, that Tyrion plays a hand that benefits her, doesn't mean she would not have continued to oppose Tywin. Does she always play a winning hand, no, but she plays the game.

This isn't about love, or about right or wrong. It's about the game of thrones. Cersei is a player. To say she's a lamb or doesn't give things thought is not giving her the credit she deserves. She's playing the game and making things happen. No one dismisses Littlefinger this way. Littlefinger doesn't dismiss her. He outplays her, but he knows she's playing.

Here's the quote:

“Father will never consent,” Jaime objected.

“The king won’t ask him. And once it’s done, Father can’t object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne’s tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand’s guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won’t stop this, either.”

“But,” Jaime said, “there’s Casterly Rock …”

“Is it a rock you want? Or me?”

He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.

A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard.

I gave another example here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100710-cersei-didnt-even-try-to-make-it-work-with-bob/?p=5210157

[The Sleeper]

Teenage girls? Why do you keep bringing that up? And I'd imagine no better than teenage boys. Let's not go there.

I mentioned her age to show the skill she showed even then.

Cersei robbed Tywin Lannister of his heir! Jaime is his golden boy. This is huge to Tywin. This would be huge to anyone. She pulled this off masterfully. This took a lot of thought. And it wasn't just about sex to Cersei. Look who is heir to Casterly Rock now. And nothing in her POVs or any others to show she doesn't make moves? She's playing the game from the moment we meet her in the books.

The first sentence was meant as a bit of a joke. Obviously, it got lost or wasn't a particularly good one to being with. Not the point, in either case.

As far as the consequences of her action that you mention are of course true, but nothing demonstrates that they were the intended effect or that she intended anything other than having Jaime close to her. Any of her thoughts from her childhood, point to her ambtion being to become queen, not heir to Casterly Rock.

And I don't recall her making or planning to make any moves against Tywin, in the current course of the books.

[Ran]

Pushing someone's legs apart is something you might do if they're, you know, together, and you'd like to correct that, and your partner isn't opposed to this eventuality. Pushing them apart does not mean that they are _resisting_ having them pushed apart. _Forcing_ them apart would of course suggest resistance, but that's not the word Cersei uses.

There's no place where Cersei indicates she resisted Robert -- she didn't say no, she didn't lock him out of her chamber, etc. -- because it's obvious that she couldn't bring herself to that point for reasons already stated. The most she was willing to do was to try and dissuade him through other means.

[Jory Cassel]

Pushing someone's legs apart is something you might do if they're, you know, together, and you'd like to correct that, and your partner isn't opposed to this eventuality.

Pushing them apart does not mean that they are _resisting_ having them pushed apart. _Forcing_ them apart would of course suggest resistance, but that's not the word Cersei uses.

(...)

she does, actually:

Taena warmed the bed as well as Robert ever had, and never tried to force Cersei’s legs apart.

[Winter's Knight]

Pushing someone's legs apart is something you might do if they're, you know, together, and you'd like to correct that, and your partner isn't opposed to this eventuality.

Pushing them apart does not mean that they are _resisting_ having them pushed apart. _Forcing_ them apart would of course suggest resistance, but that's not the word Cersei uses.

There's no place where Cersei indicates she resisted Robert -- she didn't say no, she didn't lock him out of her chamber, etc. -- because it's obvious that she couldn't bring herself to that point for reasons already stated. The most she was willing to do was to try and dissuade him through other means.

Like this you mean?

Taena warmed the bed as well as Robert ever had, and never tried to force Cersei’s legs apart.

[Le Cygne]

The first sentence was meant as a bit of a joke. Obviously, it got lost or wasn't a particularly good one to being with. Not the point, in either case.

As far as the consequences of her action that you mention are of course true, but nothing demonstrates that they were the intended effect or that she intended anything other than having Jaime close to her. Any of her thoughts from her childhood, point to her ambtion being to become queen, not heir to Casterly Rock.

And I don't recall her making or planning to make any moves against Tywin, in the current course of the books.

Just the same way she wanted Jaime close to her when he returned without a hand that she recoiled from after he refused to kill Tyrion.

She said no to Tywin. Loudly. If you want to think she would have not resisted any more after that, that's your choice. I'm not seeing it.

[Celestial]

Since this topic shifted to the thorny issue of "Robert raping Cersei", I have to quote one lengthy post I made about 5 months ago:

A. The testimony

The crux of the accusation of rape against king Bob is Cersei's infamous testimony from AFFC. But if said testimony is closely examined, it looks rather unclear. When Cersei thinks about what was actually happening between them in the bedroom, she describes herself as "lying helplessly" under him, "sore afterward" and complain that he "hurt" her. Still, Cersei never mentions her actually actually refusing him and Robert forcing her. There is no actual description about what actually happened before she came to "lie helplessly" under Robert and how she ended in that position - despite the fact that Cersei describes in detail how she felt during the act or the quarrel she had with Robert afterwards. In a recollection which is basically an accusation against Robert, Cersei's oversight is more than conspicuous. That was basically the most important element to make Robert look like the monster she was trying to portray him, and she never mentions it? Very unlikely.

For a comparison, here is how Catelyn thinks of her lovemaking with Ned: "Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache". The difference is that Cat loves Ned, so she shrugs it off. If Cat had reasons to hate Ned, she could have described her lovemaking with Ned in the exact same terms. "Sore", "hurt" and "lying helplessly" under the man.

There is one comment in AFFC which might lend more credence to the rape theory, when Cersei thinks that "Taena warmed the bed as well as Robert ever had, and never tried to force Cersei’s legs apart". In the context of the comparison with Taena, it is unclear whether the meaning of the quotation is literal, particularly since the detail is missing from Cersei's more elaborate recollection on the subject. Having in mind that Cersei is contemptuous of the sexual advances of any other man bar Jaime, there is a strong likelihood that she would refer to any sexual act in such terms.

In addition, there is one other assertion from Cersei which casts doubt over her account: "If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years." she tells Ned during their meeting in the godswood. So it seems that Cersei actually had the possibility to refuse Robert if she chose so.


B. The Witness

So, if the testimony is vague and doubtful, maybe the witness per se is reliable in general, so the less solid elements of the account could be overlooked?

Not really. Many characters can be described as "unreliable narrators", but Cersei goes farther than that. To put it bluntly, Cersei is someone who would be required to undergo a psychiatric examination in order to be deemed fit to testify in a dispute over a bag of turnips.

The witness is exhibiting clear signs of THREE personality disorders: the paranoid personality disorder, the borderline personality disorder and the narcissistic personality disorder. One of the characteristics of the paranoid is to feel righteous, but persecuted. And what do we see in Cersei's thoughts? How Robert abused her, while Cersei "stoically" endured the mistreatment and even "valiantly" fought back against her persecutor.
Here is what characterizes the paranoid type (source: DSM, via wikipedia):

• excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
• tendency to bear grudges persistently, i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights;
• suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
• a combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of keeping with the actual situation;
• recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
• tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
• preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.

Cersei exhibits 6 symptoms out of 7.

The Borderline personality disorder (or Emotionally unstable personality disorder), impulsive type:

• marked tendency to act unexpectedly and without consideration of the consequences;
• marked tendency to engage in quarrelsome behavior and to have conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or criticized;
• liability to outbursts of anger or violence, with inability to control the resulting behavioral explosions;
• difficulty in maintaining any course of action that offers no immediate reward;
• unstable and capricious (impulsive, whimsical) mood.

Cersei exhibits all the symptoms.

The Narcissistic personality disorder:

• Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
• Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
• Envies others and believes others envy him/her
• Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
• Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
• Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
• Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

Cersei again exhibits all the symptoms.

The argument in favor of Cersei's account runs that "Cersei is a very prideful person. She doesn't like or want sympathy or pity from others", ergo her account is likely to be genuine. The problem is that one of the defining traits of the paranoid disorder is miscontruction of other people's actions as hostile, which occurs unconsciously.
In addition, the assertion about Cersei's pride is not entirely correct. We see her in total melt-down mode:

in a ACOK: "Cersei sniffed. “I should have been born a man. I would have no need of any of you then. None of this would have been allowed to happen. How could Jaime let himself be captured by that boy? And Father, I trusted in him, fool that I am, but where is he now that he’s wanted? What is he doing?”...

and in ASOS: "His sister fought back tears. “Jaime, you’re my shining knight. You cannot abandon me when I need you most! He is stealing my son, sending me away . . . and unless you stop him, Father is going to force me to wed again!”

and in ADWD: "False friends, treacherous servants, men who had professed undying love, even her own blood … all of them had deserted her in her hour of need. Osney Kettleblack,that weakling, had broken beneath the lash, filling the High Sparrow’s ears with secrets he should have taken to his grave. His brothers, scum of the streets whom she had raisedhigh, did no more than sit upon their hands. Aurane Waters, her admiral, had fled to sea with the dromonds she had built for him. Orton Merryweather had gone running back toLongtable, taking his wife, Taena, who had been the queen’s one true friend in these terrible times. Harys Swyft and Grand Maester Pycelle had abandoned her to captivity andoffered the realm to the very men who had conspired against her. Meryn Trant and Boros Blount, the king’s sworn protectors, were nowhere to be found. Even her cousin Lancel, who once had claimed to love her, was one of her accusers. Her uncle had refused to help her rule when she would have made him the King’s Hand."

In addition, Cersei herself has orchestrated Robert's assassination in AGOT. In this context, there is a good chance for Cersei's thought to be a "rationalization of the crime" situation. The kind "Yes, I killed him, but he was an asshole who made me suffer".
Cersei clearly exhibits this pattern of thought in AFFC: "Cersei blamed Margaery Tyrell for this. If not for her, Wat might have lived a long and fruitful life, singing his little songs and bedding pig girls and crofter’s daughters. Her scheming forced this on me. She has soiled me with her treachery".


C. The Circumstantial Evidence

So, if both testimony and witness are not particularly reliable, maybe there is circumstantial evidence in favor of Cersei's account? There is circumstantial evidence... againt Cersei.

1. It does not seem to fit with Robert's personality as described in other accounts. We encounter one of his mistresses in AGOT and the woman seems to be utterly in love with him. Let's say that the woman did not dare to speak out. But Ned seems to be pretty familiar with his friend's personal life and he never raises the issue. Ned thinks about Robert's fickleness and unreliability, but never about him being a rapist. That is a surprising oversight, having in mind that the latter would have been a far more significant flaw and Ned had all the interest to inquire what kind of husband would Robert be, as he was betrothed with his sister. Here is how Ned thinks of Robert love life:
"Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart."
"Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall"
Ned is thus aware of Robert's fickle and insensitive personality, but not that Robert was a rapist?

2. Cersei's willingness to use sexuality in order to manipulate men. There is a strong likelihood that the sexual life between Robert and Cersei was actually consensual. First of all, having in mind the Westerosi patriarchal culture, it is very unlikely that Cersei considered the possibility that she could actually refuse her husband. In addition, on a personal level, Cersei considered sex as a tool to manipulate the men around her. At age 15, she used sex to convince Jaime to join the Kingsguard when the latter hesitated. Later, in ASOIF, she tried to seduce Ned and afterwards she would actually sleep with the likes of Lancel and Osney Kettleback in order to advance her goals. Additionally, she also advised Sansa at the end of ACOK to do the same. It's plainly obvious from this that using her sexuality has always been part of her modus operandi. As Cersei's goal is to gain power, her best way was to conceive children which could be passed as Robert's heirs - and for that, she had to sleep with her husband.

Having in mind that both custom and self-interest demanded Cersei to sleep with Robert and considering her willingness to trade her body for favors, how likely is that Cersei would have refused Robert on a regular basis?
If such a thing happened, it could have been only an exception. Yet Cersei's recollection are clearly not about some specific events, but some overall reflections about how bad was her sexual life with Robert in general.

3. Jaime's attitude. The Kingsguard are often close to the king and even guard the royal bedchamber. If Cersei was forced, it was impossible for Jaime not to notice. Yet how come he never tried to defend his sister? If he did, the whole court would have talked about it, it would have been impossible to hide so we would know about it.
And Jaime is defensive about his sister, to the point Cersei needed once to hide from him the bruise caused by Robert when he hit her (during the incident when she threatened to have his bastard daughter killed), out of fear that Jaime would kill Robert.
During Aerys' reign, Jaime wanted to interfere to protect Rhaella and was dissuaded by Jon Darry. That happened when he was only 15-16 years old and Rhaella was a stranger. Yet he stood by while the same thing happened to his own sister and he was a grown man? This time there was no more Jon Darry to stop him, as the other KG bar Selmy were people he had no respect for and also lesser fighters.
This is very unplausible.
But maybe Jaime could not have found out? That is downright impossible. There were other Kingsguard and servants around and people gossip. A rape is not a silent event. Cersei would have struggled and Robert would have shouted. We have seen Robert pretty vociferous when quarelling with his wife and, during those events, he was also inebriated, thus even more likely to create a fuss and attract someone's attention. And if there is something which servants love more than anything, is to spy on their masters' dirty laundry.

When I posted this for the first time, it did not get any chance for an actual argument to develop, because it was locked down immediately.

So, my jaw literally hit the floor witnessing the current change, because, due to reasons I will not mention here before I receive an answer to a certain PM, I literally believed, for months, that it was official policy that Robert raped Cersei - thinking that maybe GRRM confirmed it somewhere and I was not aware of it. Yet, that does not seem to be the case and a clarification would be in order.

[E-Ro]

And that she would provide him legitimate heirs.

Which she wasn't necessarily planning on doing, what with her sleeping with Jaime on the morning of the wedding, as well as her aborting her first pregnancy, followed by continuing to prevent the conception of legitimate heirs and continuing her liason with her brother, placing offspring not of Robert's blood in the line of succession.

That's treasonous stuff, and right from the start, before Robert ever uttered Lyanna's name on their wedding night.

I don't believe Robert raped Cersei. Her complaints have to do with his hurting her while drunk, manhandling her, but at no point is it indicated that she ever actually even suggested that if he came to her bed, she would refuse him, nor that there were ever threats from Robert. Merely that when he came to bed her, she permitted it, and he was too often a brute about it.

It's an ugly and abusive relationship, in the end, but it's mutually ugly and mutually abusive.

But given that she's getting knocked up by Jaime fairly regularly, and that she does not wish to lose the crown she has on her haid thanks to her marriage, it's clear that she has to keep bedding Robert to keep up the pretense that they are his children. Which is why she doesn't actually ever say no, so far as she indicates, and at most tries to dissuade/trick him with various non-coital methods. Her own choice to deceive him and the realm actually necessitates her having him in her bed up to Tommen's conception, thereabouts.

:agree: With all of it to be honest, especially the bolded part. Robert never comes across as the type to rape someone. And he gets so much undue hate over this. His treatment of cersei was problematic, but she is just as much to blame as he is. Shes not some innocent victim stuck in the bed of some horrible evil warlord, shes just as much to blame. As long as she goes into that marriage with her same angry cersei "I am better then you" attitude it was never going to work. Her fucking jaime before even meeting robert on the morning of their wedding should end this part of the debate.

[Ran]

See, that's a quote I forgot.

Even so, though, is it even apparent to Robert that he is actually forcing _her_, as opposed to just being rough, or that she's just needing warming up, or playing coy, or ... what have you?

Why is it that we don't hear her actually refusing and saying no? We're in her head, and yet it never appears. That's the big problem for me when we come down to this discussion: years of this relationship, and yet there's no sign that she ever informed him that she did not consent.

Isn't the onus on her? Not each and every time, no, but at _some_ point you'd think she'd have to actually say what she did and did not want. And yet that's not how she deals with the situation. Is that Robert's fault? Must Robert read her mind?

And, to circle back: would she have let him end any sexual relations at all, given that she would no longer carry on with Jaime, and might very likely be put aside?