Stannis is not iron.

[Ser Lepus]

Stannis is not iron, Renly was not copper, and Robert was not true steel.

If you ask me, Noye was full of shit.

Noye was a blacksmith, not a maester. The Westerosi think that a king should be a strong knight, and that being a strong knight will make them good rulers, and an uneducated man like Noye was even more likely to think that way.

The bastard Daemon Blackfyre found so many supporters largely because he was a superb warrior, unlike the lawful king, Daeron, who was a scholar. Many people (Ser Barristan, among others) thought that Robert Baratheon would be a good king because he was a strong warrior. It's just the way they think. Heck, even a man like Tywin educated his heir, Jamie, to be a superb jouster and swordfighter rather that to be a politician and administrator.

Renly had charisma, was diplomatic, knew how to speak and make alliances, had a good eye for the true character of those he met, and handled himself very well with KL's courtly intrigues, but he wasn't tough enough to Noye's eyes, and the latter probably wasn't even able to understand how useful Renly's people skills could be..

[Sullen]

This is why I don't get why people think Renly was morally more in "the right" than Stannis.

He was starving out the population, then dragging out the whole thing before finally sacking the city on top of that.

Stannis just wanted to finish it as quick and painless as possible. There even many indications that the actual sack would be much more subdued under his leadership.

Sacking the city? No. Renly is smarter than that, and extremely pre-occupied about PR.

He starves the city so the smallfolk grow more and more discontent with the Lannister occupation while their forces are spent fighting the Northmen in the Riverlands, when he arrives to the gates of King's Landing with an army five times the size of Stannis's during the Battle of the Blackwater, offering the bounty of the Reach, there is no way that the smallfolk turn to his side and hell, that he might also obtain a surrender from the City Watch.

[Stormland's Fury]

Sacking the city? No. Renly is smarter than that, and extremely pre-occupied about PR.

He starves the city so the smallfolk grow more and more discontent with the Lannister occupation while their forces are spent fighting the Northmen in the Riverlands, when he arrives to the gates of King's Landing with an army five times the size of Stannis's during the Battle of the Blackwater, offering the bounty of the Reach, there is no way that the smallfolk turn to his side and hell, that he might also obtain a surrender from the City Watch.

He let's the Riverlands bleed out. The ones who didn't even initiate anything.

Stannis wants to bring the Lannisters to justice, among others.

[Stormland's Fury]

And like Tin, he's been getting a bit bendy lately.

Yeah he buckles pretty hard facing the Boltons... I think he surrenders any moment.

[Stormland's Fury]

Renly had charisma, was diplomatic, knew how to speak and make alliances, had a good eye for the true character of those he met, and handled himself very well with KL's courtly intrigues, but he wasn't tought enough to Noye's eyes, and the latter probably wasn't even able to understand how useful Renly's people skills could be..

He misjudged both Ned and his own brother. The former made him finally flee the city and the latter was fatal.

[Sullen]

He let's the Riverlands bleed out. The ones who didn't even initiate anything.

Stannis wants to bring the Lannisters to justice, among others.

He lets his enemies bleed out, the Riverlanders declared for the King in the North, he won't help them until they declare for him.

He misjudged both Ned and his own brother. The former made him finally flee the city and the latter was fatal.

He went to Ned because of the opportunity and because he thought he could convince him, and I wouldn't hold him not knowing that Stannis would use a magical queef assassin capable of bypassing his entire army and his highly trained guards to murder him against him.

[Stormland's Fury]

He lets his enemies bleed out, the Riverlanders declared for the King in the North, he won't help them until they declare for him.

He went to Ned because of the opportunity and because he thought he could convince him, and I wouldn't hold him not knowing that Stannis would use a magical queef assassin capable of bypassing his entire army and his highly trained guards to murder him against him.

I am not sure how that speaks in Renly's favor. He punishes the whole Riverland population for not declaring for him, while Stannis would punish the Lannisters and responsible Riverlords if he took King's Landing.

He thought he could convince Ned to go against the law and then was surprised that Stannis might have objections of him taking the crown (against the law). Regardless of the reasons, seems like very grave misjudgments of character to me.

[Sullen]

I am not sure how that speaks in Renly's favor. He punishes the whole Riverland population for not declaring for him, while Stannis would punish the Lannisters and responsible Riverlords if he took King's Landing.

He thought he could convince Ned to go against the law and then was surprised that Stannis might have objections of him taking the crown (against the law). Regardless of the reasons, seems like very grave misjudgments of character to me.

They declared against him, he's not punishing them, he's just not helping them. (Neither is Stannis for that matter, he goes straight for King's Landing instead of fighting the Lannisters in the Riverlands, where the war crimes are actually getting committed)

Ned and Stannis both went against the law when they rose against Aerys and proceeded to depose the Targaryen dynasty, as for seizing the royal children, it wasn't exactly against the law. (Eddard was legally the regent, he had the authority to do so)

[Stormland's Fury]

They declared against him, he's not punishing them, he's just not helping them.

Ned and Stannis both went against the law when they rose against Aerys and proceeded to depose the Targaryen dynasty, as for seizing the royal children, it wasn't exactly against the law. (Eddard was loyally the regent, he had the authority to do so)

Just king indeed. Either he ignored a population that he intended to rule over or he was so wishy washy about his goals that he only had the actual throne in mind. In either case was he not as hard as iron as you made him look like.

Yes, but given the circumstances Renly should have known much better. He wanted to do treason in Ned's eyes in that moment, and he was fully aware of that. Seizing the royal children and queen regent is a crime. He didn't even know that they weren't Roberts children.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I am all in analyzing and criticizing my favorite characters myself. But some people apparently only can argue like 5-year olds. "Stannis is a meanie"

Ahahaha. :owned:

[Sullen]

Just king indeed. Either he ignored a population that he intended to rule over or he was so wishy washy about his goals that he only had the actual throne in mind. In either case was he not as hard as iron as you made him look like.

Yes, but given the circumstances Renly should have known much better. He wanted to do treason in Ned's eyes in that moment, and he was fully aware of that. Seizing the royal children and queen regent is a crime. He didn't even know that they weren't Roberts children.

Stannis ignored that population as well, is he as weak as Renly because of it? Renly would have eventually rode north to the Riverlands to defeat the Lannisters, the Northmen, and the Riverlanders, if they refused to bend the knee... just like Stannis planned to do.

And no, isolating the children, while dishonourable, was not treason. Renly was not suggesting seizing Cersei either, and she wasn't Queen Regent, she was simply Queen Consort, Eddard was the regent.

[Stormland's Fury]

Stannis ignored that population as well, is he as weak as Renly because of it? Renly would have eventually rode north to the Riverlands to defeat the Lannisters, the Northmen, and the Riverlanders, if they refused to bend the knee... just like Stannis planned to do.

And no, isolating the children, while dishonourable, was not treason. Renly was not suggesting seizing Cersei either, and she wasn't Queen Regent, she was simply Queen Consort, Eddard was the regent.

No, Stannis wanted to take the throne as fast as possible to restore order throughout the realm. Renly wanted to bleed them out as long as possible before even attacking KL. See the difference?

But arresting the officially (by Robert no less) assigned heir, Joffrey, is. Ned hadn't spilled the beans about his true parentage yet. He was only declared Joffrey's regent as you pointed out. Renly even thinking Ned would be along for a power grab says enough.

[Sullen]

No, Stannis wanted to take the throne as fast as possible to restore order throughout the realm. Renly wanted to bleed them out as long as possible before even attacking KL. See the difference?

But arresting the officially (by Robert no less) assigned heir, Joffrey, is. Ned hadn't spilled the beans about his true parentage yet. He was only declared Joffrey's regent as you pointed out. Renly even thinking Ned would be along for a power grab says enough.

Stannis had no reason to wait, in fact, he needed to act quickly before Tywin could reach King's Landing because he most likely couldn't have taken it was Tywin and his forces present. Renly had five times Stannis's numbers, he could allow himself to take his time.

And I don't think you understand Renly's plan, Eddard was not to arrest Joffrey, he was to put him under his supervision/protection, away from his mother and the Lannisters. Joffrey is still the rightful King, but Ned rules the Kingdoms until he comes out age. Nothing illegal/treasonous in that.

[Stormland's Fury]

Stannis had no reason to wait, in fact, he needed to act quickly before Tywin could reach King's Landing because he most likely couldn't have taken it was Tywin and his forces present. Renly had five times Stannis's numbers, he could allow himself to take his time.

And I don't think you understand Renly's plan, Eddard was not to arrest Joffrey, he was to put him under his supervision/protection, away from his mother and the Lannisters. Joffrey is still the rightful King, but Ned rules the Kingdoms until he comes out age. Nothing illegal/treasonous in that.

And he does, while he makes the people suffer. Stannis was already waiting for almost a year before the war broke out and when shit hit the fan he acted.

We have thoughts of among other Cressen, Orlenna and Catelyn about Renly. 3 people that have nothing in common with eachother and basically all say he's impulsive, not calculating and very flashy without much grounding.

No you don't understand his plan, he wanted to seize the kids and use them basically as hostages (he held no love for Joff that much is clear). He wanted to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells for some time and Robert's dead, the one who binds the Baratheons to the Lannisters was a perfect opportunity. Why do you think he had the Tyrell army ready shortly after he fled KL? And married so quick for that matter? He clearly believed Ned would go along with it, because it would put him in charge for a while. (which was basically his offer to go through with it).

No matter what he completely misread Ned.

[Sullen]

And he does, while he makes the people suffer. Stannis was already waiting for almost a year before the war broke out and when shit hit the fan he acted.

We have thoughts of among other Cressen, Orlenna and Catelyn about Renly. 3 people that have nothing in common with eachother and basically all say he's impulsive, not calculating and very flashy without much grounding.

No you don't understand his plan, he wanted to seize the kids and use them basically as hostages (he held no love for Joff that much is clear). He wanted to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells for some time and Robert's dead, the one who binds the Baratheons to the Lannisters was a perfect opportunity. Why do you think he had the Tyrell army ready shortly after he fled KL? And married so quick for that matter? He clearly believed Ned would go along with it, because it would put him in charge for a while. (which was basically his offer to go through with it).

No matter what he completely misread Ned.

As for Stannis, he doesn't act as soon as the shit hits the fan. Both Renly and Robb have the time to crown themselves, rally their forces, and start their campaign against the Lannisters before Stannis even gets off his island and makes his claim known, and his first move is not to go defend the people of the Riverlands who are really the victims in all of this, it's to attack Storm's End. Blaming Renly for not coming to the rescue of the Riverlands as soon as he could but excusing Stannis is somewhat hypocritical.

Cressen hasn't seen Renly since he was a child (and never says he's stupid either), Olenna has a negative opinion of pretty much everyone and was in a situation where talking positively of Renly could have landed her in trouble in any case, and Catelyn was vexed with Renly at the time.

As for his plan, you completely missed the mark. He couldn't have planned Robert's death, so no, he did not prepare a coup with the Tyrells and had them have their armies ready. Renly's plan was not to put the Tyrells in power, it was first and foremost to get rid of the Lannisters, whether Robert or Joffrey was on the Throne (whether he likes Joffrey or not is not an issue). Crowning himself was only a last measure, which luckily accommodated the Tyrells as well.

And of course he believed Eddard would have gone for it, anyone with a least bit of sense would have seen that Renly's plan was the smart thing to do.

[Stormland's Fury]

As for Stannis, he doesn't act as soon as the shit hits the fan. Both Renly and Robb have the time to crown themselves, rally their forces, and start their campaign against the Lannisters before Stannis even gets off his island and makes his claim known, and his first move is not to go defend the people of the Riverlands who are really the victims in all of this, it's to attack Storm's End. Blaming Renly for not coming to the rescue of the Riverlands as soon as he could but excusing Stannis is somewhat hypocritical.

Cressen hasn't seen Renly since he was a child (and never says he's stupid either), Olenna has a negative opinion of pretty much everyone and was in a situation where talking positively of Renly could have landed her in trouble in any case, and Catelyn was vexed with Renly at the time.

As for his plan, you completely missed the mark. He couldn't have planned Robert's death, so no, he did not prepare a coup with the Tyrells and had them have their armies ready. Renly's plan was not to put the Tyrells in power, it was first and foremost to get rid of the Lannisters, whether Robert or Joffrey was on the Throne (whether he likes Joffrey or not is not an issue). Crowning himself was only a last measure, which luckily accommodated the Tyrells as well.

And of course he believed Eddard would have gone for it, anyone with a least bit of sense would have seen that Renly's plan was the smart thing to do.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

I explain it now in a few words: Renly has a penchant for romanticism while Stannis has one for pragmatism. Stannis wasn't the heir while Robert was alive, as soon he dies and it becomes the rightful king he sends out the letter, tries to get the Stormlands on his side and to take KL in one swipe to stop the war. Renly only stretches it out and doesn't particularly care what happens to other regions.

Yes, that's my point they have all different relations to Renly and still come to the same conclusion.

You completely missed the point what I was saying, and oversimplify it way too much. Bottom line is still, Renly doesn't have a keen eye for human qualities and your last sentence seriously confirms it. You seem to have neither understood Ned's nor Renly's character, which this seems to sum up quite well.

[To catch a Lannister]

The quote is saying he will never give up. It's part of what endears Stannis to so many readers. As a second son and the victim of a drillion shitty circumstances he keeps going. And this notion that Stannis is going to flame out or is some insignificant character is patently ridiculous. He literally saved Westeros from invasion, a war ravaged Westeros that was completely and utterly divided, who knows how far Mance would have gotten? Not to mention his army was outnumbered 20 to 1. He's already done a great deal without having to get the Luke Skywalker/Harry Potter chosen one treatment.

[Dragon's Bane]

Both Stannis and Renly are incredible characters, true leaders in their own right and would complement each other perfectly. She may be a bit crazy, but Cat got the right of it:

Renly is a king for summer: Starving out the small folk might work when there is enough food around that it is only a minor inconvenience. Waiting for the other warring parties to destroy each other is a solid plan - unless that last harvest before winter could make every difference. Renly knows how to win the love of others, but he should also know, that it is never cheap.

Stannis is a king for winter: Caring for the small folk even more than caring for the lords, putting the protection of the realm at top priority, attempting a swift strike to keep the damage to a minimum. Stannis knows he won't be loved, he doesn't have to be loved. That is why he can use necessary measures - rationing food, increasing taxes. All this is necessary with winter and the Iron Bank of Braavos knocking at the door. He is willing to make amoral decisions if it is for the good of the realm, and also willing to pay whichever punishment he deserves.

So Noye should have said that Robert was spring, Renly was summer and Stannis is winter. And winter is coming.

[To catch a Lannister]

Both Stannis and Renly are incredible characters, true leaders in their own right and would complement each other perfectly. She may be a bit crazy, but Cat got the right of it:

Renly is a king for summer: Starving out the small folk might work when there is enough food around that it is only a minor inconvenience. Waiting for the other warring parties to destroy each other is a solid plan - unless that last harvest before winter could make every difference. Renly knows how to win the love of others, but he should also know, that it is never cheap.

Stannis is a king for winter: Caring for the small folk even more than caring for the lords, putting the protection of the realm at top priority, attempting a swift strike to keep the damage to a minimum. Stannis knows he won't be loved, he doesn't have to be loved. That is why he can use necessary measures - rationing food, increasing taxes. All this is necessary with winter and the Iron Bank of Braavos knocking at the door. He is willing to make amoral decisions if it is for the good of the realm, and also willing to pay whichever punishment he deserves.

So Noye should have said that Robert was spring, Renly was summer and Stannis is winter. And winter is coming.

Yeaaaahhh but he was a blacksmith not a weatherman

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Stannis had no reason to wait, in fact, he needed to act quickly before Tywin could reach King's Landing because he most likely couldn't have taken it was Tywin and his forces present. Renly had five times Stannis's numbers, he could allow himself to take his time.

And I don't think you understand Renly's plan, Eddard was not to arrest Joffrey, he was to put him under his supervision/protection, away from his mother and the Lannisters. Joffrey is still the rightful King, but Ned rules the Kingdoms until he comes out age. Nothing illegal/treasonous in that.

Renly, from what we get in the books, doesn't do much planning. He had some ideas but there's no particular brilliance attached to him. If he had become king, the only way he would have remained on the throne would be by letting the Tyrells rule through him.

And Joffrey could not be the rightful king because he wasn't Robert's son. Funny how Renly didn't care about that.

As you point out, Renly had five times Stannis' numbers. He had more than Robb did. He had the manpower to get in the game and actually win, saving the Riverlands and thus securing their allegiance to him in the future should Robb fall. He could have taken the noble approach that those were his people even if they didn't know it. Maybe step in for the sake of the smallfolk who didn't declare for anybody because they were too busy running for their lives. When a true king has resources like Renly has, he doesn't sit on them. The whole "let them bleed each other" strategy isn't his either. He got that from his in-laws who also did not have the interests of the people at heart. It was supposedly for the people that Renly made his claim but he did nothing to help them. Renly is a :bs: excuse for a king. He looks the part but doesn't act it.