Stannis is not iron.

[Boarsbane]

Renly, from what we get in the books, doesn't do much planning. He had some ideas but there's no particular brilliance attached to him. If he had become king, the only way he would have remained on the throne would be by letting the Tyrells rule through him.

And Joffrey could not be the rightful king because he wasn't Robert's son. Funny how Renly didn't care about that.

As you point out, Renly had five times Stannis' numbers. He had more than Robb did. He had the manpower to get in the game and actually win, saving the Riverlands and thus securing their allegiance to him in the future should Robb fall. He could have taken the noble approach that those were his people even if they didn't know it. Maybe step in for the sake of the smallfolk who didn't declare for anybody because they were too busy running for their lives. When a true king has resources like Renly has, he doesn't sit on them. The whole "let them bleed each other" strategy isn't his either. He got that from his in-laws who also did not have the interests of the people at heart. It was supposedly for the people that Renly made his claim but he did nothing to help them. Renly is a :bs: excuse for a king. He looks the part but doesn't act it.

Yea removing Cersei and replacing her with Margaery looks like it would of been a terrible idea. Same for Ned taking Robert's "children" into he and Renly's custody. All his ideas and plans were just stupid.

Why would Renly believe it? Because the kids have blonde hair? To most people it looks like a self-serving lie for Stannis. You do realize Renly doesn't know what us readers know?

The Riverlands and North are in open rebellion, until Cat shows up they show no interest in being a friend of his. It makes no sense to bypass KL and attack the Riverlands. Tywin is occupying Harrenhal and even with Renly vastly outnumbering him he has more than enough men to hold it for a time. Funny how people expect Renly to just ignore KL and Joffrey but when Stannis assaults KL instead of helping the Riverlands it is OK.

[Stormland's Fury]

As you point out, Renly had five times Stannis' numbers. He had more than Robb did. He had the manpower to get in the game and actually win, saving the Riverlands and thus securing their allegiance to him in the future should Robb fall.

This.

he had the biggest army and could easily take KL, yet he (the Reachmen?) chooses too bleed out the kingdom anyway.

What's crazy is that I even defended Renly and his reasoning in another post, but some people see it so black and white that you have to point it out to them blatantly.

[Stormland's Fury]

The Riverlands and North are in open rebellion, until Cat shows up they show no interest in being a friend of his. It makes no sense to bypass KL and attack the Riverlands. Tywin is occupying Harrenhal and even with Renly vastly outnumbering him he has more than enough men to hold it for a time. Funny how people expect Renly to just ignore KL and Joffrey but when Stannis assaults KL instead of helping the Riverlands it is OK.

All Renly needed to do was to take KL and bring order back to the rest of the realm. Just like Stannis.

Funny how you purposely misinterpret want people said just so you can get your point across.

[Sullen]

All Renly needed to do was to take KL and bring order back to the rest of the realm. Just like Stannis.

Funny how you purposely misinterpret want people said just so you can get your point across.

He obviously needed to preserve his strength if he wanted to bring the Lannisters, the Rivanlanders, and the Northmen to justice without extending the conflict even further.

[Stormland's Fury]

He obviously needed to preserve his strength if he wanted to bring the Lannisters, the Rivanlanders, and the Northmen to justice without extending the conflict even further.

No, he could crush KL without much effort with his army. He doesn't strike from the sea like Stannis, but only from land and with far more men. What was there to preserve?

[Sullen]

No, he could crush KL without much effort with his army. He doesn't strike from the sea like Stannis, but only from land and with far more men. What was there to preserve?

His troops, obviously.

He will encounter resistance at King's Landing, and would lose a considerable part of his troops there. (Not to mention he loses his PR advantage from the slow march)

He then has to struggle with the relatively intact Lannister forces, and Northmen/Riverlander alliance, who seeing that Renly is not as powerful as he might have been comparatively, could refuse to bend the knee, which only extends the fighting and causes more damage to all parties involved. (Not to mention Stannis, that is building up forces back on Dragonstone and buying mercenaries that could eventually weaken Renly's position even further)

[Stormland's Fury]

His troops, obviously.

He will encounter resistance at King's Landing, and would lose a considerable part of his troops there. (Not to mention he loses his PR advantage from the slow march)

He then has to struggle with the relatively intact Lannister forces, and Northmen/Riverlander alliance, who seeing that Renly is not as powerful as he might have been comparatively, could refuse to bend the knee, which only extends the fighting and causes more damage to all parties involved. (Not to mention Stannis, that is building up forces back on Dragonstone and buying mercenaries that could eventually weaken Renly's position even further)

If he would loose that many troops, then the plan was flawed to begin with. His PR advantage is starving the population of KL, which was one of my points to begin with. But thanks for helping me out.

The Lannisters and Riverlands already fought for a year and the Northerners wouldn't suddenly join the Lannisters.

[Sullen]

If he would loose that many troops, then the plan was flawed to begin with. His PR advantage is starving the population of KL, which was one of my points to begin with. But thanks for helping me out.

The Lannisters and Riverlands already fought for a year and the Northerners wouldn't suddenly join the Lannisters.

He loses that many troops if he rushes, that's the point of taking his time.

And no, the Northmen would not join the Lannisters, they'd probably retreat back North to kick out the Ironborn and fortify their position and their independence... Renly still has two enemies on his hands. (That aren't fighting anymore, because Renly is now the main threat)

[Stormland's Fury]

He loses that many troops if he rushes, that's the point of taking his time.

And no, the Northmen would not join the Lannisters, they'd probably retreat back North to kick out the Ironborn and fortify their position and their independence... Renly still has two enemies on his hands. (That aren't fighting anymore, because Renly is now the main threat)

What is it now? Is he having a solid plan to take KL with superior numbers or he is he willing to drag it out as long as possible and let others suffer?

We are still discussing if Renly was as hard as iron like you claimed.

Renly was interesting in taking the throne to sit on the throne, the rest was secondary. He was perfectly willing to let the North to be independent as long as he was king in KL. Which doesn't speak in his favor as being hard as iron either.

I was arguing that Stannis intention was to bring order to the realm as soon as he could, which wasn't necessarily the case with Renly.

[Chatty Duelist]

How Plato said it? Oh yes "Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder." For me Stannis is a very attractive man and ShowStannis just give more points to my opinion.

Stannis is not the definition of beauty, beauty is the definintion of Stannis.

[Sullen]

What is it now? Is he having a solid plan to take KL with superior numbers or he is he willing to drag it out as long as possible and let others suffer?

We are still discussing if Renly was as hard as iron like you claimed.

Renly was interesting in taking the throne to sit on the throne, the rest was secondary. He was perfectly willing to let the North to be independent as long as he was king in KL. Which doesn't speak in his favor as being hard as iron either.

I was arguing that Stannis intention was to bring order to the realm as soon as he could, which wasn't necessarily the case with Renly.

He drags it as long as possible so that his army is comparatively gargantuan and that he can simply get the opposing parties to surrender without shedding much blood, what's so hard to understand?

And you should read ACoK again, Renly was not willing to le the North be independent, he was willing to let Robb use the moniker "King in the North" as long as he paid him homage, the same way the Dornish leaders can still call themselves "Princes" and that the Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands was still the "King of Salt and Rock".

And Stannis wasn't exactly looking to bring order to the Realm when he murdered Renly and thus turned the biggest player in the Kingdoms against him, ensuring that a carnage-less victory on his part was pretty much impossible.

[Stormland's Fury]

He drags it as long as possible so that his army is comparatively gargantuan and that he can simply get the opposing parties to surrender without shedding much blood, what's so hard to understand?

And you should read ACoK again, Renly was not willing to le the North be independent, he was willing to let Robb use the moniker "King in the North" as long as he paid him homage, the same way the Dornish leaders can still call themselves "Princes" and that the Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands was still the "King of Salt and Rock".

And Stannis wasn't exactly looking to bring order to the Realm when he murdered Renly and thus turned the biggest player in the Kingdoms against him, ensuring that a carnage-less victory on his part was pretty much impossible.

With no concern how much the population suffers. Which was my point too. I understand the plan, but you're problem is that you want to whitewash everything he does. You can't have it both ways.

Well yes, what is your point? Pretty wishy washy politics for being hard as iron.

Yes, killing one man to ensure the safety of thousands of others. That's pretty much Stannis' shtick. If his methods are right is another argument.

[hollowcrown]

And Stannis wasn't exactly looking to bring order to the Realm when he murdered Renly and thus turned the biggest player in the Kingdoms against him, ensuring that a carnage-less victory on his part was pretty much impossible.

Renly was going to kill Stannis to legitimise his claim...what is Stannis expected to do? Sit back and let himself die?

People set saint-like expectations of Stannis and only apply it to him and no other characters,

[danm_999]

The logical thing to do is to put your heir at the time, Stannis, into the traditional seat of the heir to the Iron Throne.

As GRRM himself said, "By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir(which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later)".

Stannis wanted a slight to be made against him, so he imagined one.

Logical thing to do "at the time", yes. But Stannis making his complaints 15 years later, aren't that silly when you look at it.

It's all well and good to be given Dragonstone after Robert's just taken the throne as GRRM notes, since it's kind of like the Westerosi equivilent of the Prince of Wales title, but once Joffrey and then Tommen are born, you can't keep pretending it has the same significance.

Stannis obviously isn't going to suceed Robert at that point, and the symbol that the Lordship of Dragonstone entails has diminished. It's now just another holding, it's not a path to the big job any longer. It was prestigous in the past because Targaryens gave that place to their heirs, but Robert ain't like the Targaryens. He's locked those bones up in the basement. Heck, at some point Robert may even choose to bestow Dragonstone on Joffrey or Tommen to warm them up for leadership, and leave Stannis in the lurch completely.

But even though he's no longer the heir, and Dragonstone doesn't mean the thing it did when he initially received it, Robert didn't change anything to reflect this, or even reward him for subsequent good work (like, say, defeating the Iron Fleet at sea in the Greyjoy Rebellion). Hell, Ned even suggests giving Stannis the title of Warden of the East, a rather natural decision given Stannis is a proven commander and actually in the East, and Robert growls him down and gives it to Jaime (who had never lead a military force or lived in the East).

Joffrey, apparently, was going to inherit the Iron Throne, and Stannis was going to be stuck with this holding that's historically not intended for anybody to permanently have (and maybe even lose that at some point).

That's why he wanted Storm's End. He wanted to know where he stood. He wanted some job stability. He also probably wanted to know that his children would be provided for and have a good holding of their own to inherit when that day came too.

[Stormland's Fury]

That's why he wanted Storm's End. He wanted to know where he stood. He wanted some job stability. He also probaly wanted to know that his children would be provided for and have a good holding of their own to inherit when that day came too.

I see it like this too.

Although I always got the feeling that he grew "fond" of Dragonstone in some way.

[Sullen]

With no concern how much the population suffers. Which was my point too. I understand the plan, but you're problem is that you want to whitewash everything he does. You can't have it both ways.

Well yes, what is your point? Pretty wishy washy politics for being hard as iron.

Yes, killing one man to ensure the safety of thousands of others. That's pretty much Stannis' shtick. If his methods are right is another argument.

Rushing King's Landing would have made the population suffer more though, everywhere.

And yes, I'd qualify someone able to defuse that situation diplomatically without losing anything as being extremely solid.

And no, killing Renly did not mean the safety of a thousand others, it ensured the death of thousands upon thousands, nothing about saving lives there. If Renly truly cared about saving lives, he would have stayed out of the whole conflict and never crowned himself King. Stannis is "Laws and Duty over the Safety of Thousands" then what you claim.

Renly was going to kill Stannis to legitimise his claim...what is Stannis expected to do? Sit back and let himself die?

People set saint-like expectations of Stannis and only apply it to him and no other characters,

Renly didn't need to legitimize his claim, he claimed the Throne through conquest, not inheritance, and would have left Stannis be if Stannis hadn't attacked him at Storm's End.

[Stormland's Fury]

Rushing King's Landing would have made the population suffer more though, everywhere.

And yes, I'd qualify someone able to defuse that situation diplomatically without losing anything as being extremely solid.

And no, killing Renly did not mean the safety of a thousand others, it ensured the death of thousands upon thousands, nothing about saving lives there. If Renly truly cared about saving lives, he would have stayed out of the whole conflict and never crowned himself King. Stannis is "Laws and Duty over the Safety of Thousands" then what you claim.

Renly didn't need to legitimize his claim, he claimed the Throne through conquest, not inheritance, and would have left Stannis be if Stannis hadn't attacked him at Storm's End.

How exactly? If he took KL right away how would that make people suffer everywhere else or even worsen their situation?

How is that politically solid if he basically loses direct control of several regions?

I guess you didn't understand the last part of my statement. We're talking about Stannis' intention not if it was wise to do so.

The worst part is that I actually defended a lot of what Renly did in another post, as I can understand his reasoning as well, but you seem to have no grasp of objectivity.

Well, again Renly was not a perfect judge of character. And even if he would Stannis leave alone after taking the IT, pretty careless to let him have almost the whole royal fleet, among others.

[The Drunkard]

Caring about the lowborn isn't exactly a common trait of the nobility, so while Renly certainly wasn't being nice in what he did, I don't see it being atypical. Characters who do go out of their way and set back their own interests to protect commoners (Edmure) get called soft-headed.

Likewise for waging wars over what we would see as almost meaningless.

And Stannis wasn't exactly looking to bring order to the Realm when he murdered Renly and thus turned the biggest player in the Kingdoms against him, ensuring that a carnage-less victory on his part was pretty much impossible.

I don't agree that Renly's death would necessarily turn the biggest player over to the Lannisters. After Renly died the majority of his nobility joined with Stannis, knights and lords from all over the Stormlands and Reach, and it was only due to some fast thinking (and fast purging) by Randyll and Loras that the infantry at Bitterbridge didn't join with Stannis as well. If not for those two co-opting the soldiers of all the nobles with Stannis, I'd say it's very likely that there'd be a second Storm's End, with all the formerly Tyrell/Renly soldiers defaulting to what appears to be the automatic new king.

[Sullen]

I don't agree that Renly's death would necessarily turn the biggest player over to the Lannisters. After Renly died the majority of his nobility joined with Stannis, knights and lords from all over the Stormlands and Reach, and it was only due to some fast thinking (and fast purging) by Randyll and Loras that the infantry at Bitterbridge didn't join with Stannis as well. If not for those two co-opting the soldiers of all the nobles with Stannis, I'd say it's very likely that there'd be a second Storm's End, with all the formerly Tyrell/Renly soldiers defaulting to what appears to be the automatic new king.

Not over to the Lannisters, but still against Stannis.

The Tyrells hate Stannis more than anything since the Siege of Storm's End (and Stannis hates them back for that) and the murder of Renly, even if Stannis manages to claim the Throne, he will have to deal with the 85k troops that haven't joined him. That means the Kingdom bleeds, a lot.

How exactly? If he took KL right away how would that make people suffer everywhere else or even worsen their situation?

Because you need a large army and to be in an incredibly advantageous position to get someone to surrender unconditionally, which Renly loses when he charges King's Landing (losing troops and not profiting from the discontent) and directly going to the Riverlands (fighting the relatively undamaged Lannisters and Northmen at the same time).

How is that politically solid if he basically loses direct control of several regions?

Because he doesn't lose control of the region, "King in the North" is an empty title, as is "King of Salt and Rock", or "Prince of Dorne", in the end, they are all liege lords in the service of the Iron Throne.

The worst part is that I actually defended a lot of what Renly did in another post, as I can understand his reasoning as well, but you seem to have no grasp of objectivity.

You really don't give off that impression, no one with a grasp of Renly's reasoning would say that in his deal with Cat he "loses control of the North" like you said.

[Stormland's Fury]

Because you need a large army and to be in an incredibly advantageous position to get someone to surrender unconditionally, which Renly loses when he charges King's Landing (losing troops and not profiting from the discontent) and directly going to the Riverlands (fighting the relatively undamaged Lannisters and Northmen at the same time).

If he holds KL he holds the capital with a large army and the Lannisters are cut off from it.... Do I really have to spell it out for you?

Because he doesn't lose control of the region, "King in the North" is an empty title, as is "King of Salt and Rock", or "Prince of Dorne", in the end, they are all liege lords in the service of the Iron Throne.

Loses a lot of face then, that's as passive as it can get and again you just confirming my point that he was only out for the Iron Throne itself.

You really don't give off that impression, no one with a grasp of Renly's reasoning would say that in his deal with Cat he "loses control of the North" like you said.

Confused that you can't resort to pure Stannis bashing?