The Drunkard Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Not over to the Lannisters, but still against Stannis. The Tyrells hate Stannis more than anything since the Siege of Storm's End (and Stannis hates them back for that) and the murder of Renly, even if Stannis manages to claim the Throne, he will have to deal with the 85k troops that haven't joined him. That means the Kingdom bleeds, a lot. Only if you assume the forces at Bitterbridge were always going to be loyal to the Tyrells and therefore opposed to Stannis, which isn't the case. Renly takes most of the lords and knights from his combined army to Storm's End. Four fifths of them join Stannis without Mace's approval, or his that of his son. They clearly see Stannis as a viable candidate to support, even if Mace and his inner circle don't. Those who joined with Stannis still have their infantry with the ~60k at Bitterbridge, and that infantry was only prevented from joining their lieges in Stannis' camp by Randyll and Loras, who apparently had to kill a fair amount to prevent the army from doing exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Only if you assume the forces at Bitterbridge were always going to be loyal to the Tyrells and therefore opposed to Stannis, which isn't the case. Renly takes most of the lords and knights from his combined army to Storm's End. Four fifths of them join Stannis without Mace's approval, or his that of his son. They clearly see Stannis as a viable candidate to support, even if Mace and his inner circle don't. Those who joined with Stannis still have their infantry with the ~60k at Bitterbridge, and that infantry was only prevented from joining their lieges in Stannis' camp by Randyll and Loras, who apparently had to kill a fair amount to prevent the army from doing exactly that. Plus if Stannis had won the BoB, most lords would have knelt in any case, what are they supposed to otherwise? No reason to go to war with nothing to gain and everything to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilúvatar Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Stannis and Robert are both steel. Renly is plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord rosa Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 The Renly love baffles me, the man is vain and disloyal and his disloyalty has put Baratheon line in jeopardy. If the stormlanders leige lord had declared for Stannis, u know the knight of flowers would have joined the fray as well. Stannis and Renly together would have had Cersei, Joff, and the Imp's head on spikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 The Renly love baffles me, the man is vain and disloyal and his disloyalty has put Baratheon line in jeopardy. If the stormlanders leige lord had declared for Stannis, u know the knight of flowers would have joined the fray as well. Stannis and Renly together would have had Cersei, Joff, and the Imp's head on spikes Like I said I can understand some of the reasons why Renly did what he did, but some people just want to see him as that fair prince in shining armor that got stabbed in the back by his evil brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lelele Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Wow, suddenly I have a new kind of appreciation of Renly. While I'm not sold on him being "noble" or "honourable", I'm convinced of his political and logistical skill. Using overwhelming numbers and resources to pressure enemies in giving up while minimizing bloodshed, I can respect that. He doesn't have to be Ned Good to hate war casualties, like Roose who is neither evil nor good, but likes peach in this lands. Either way, I'm impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Targdust Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 A lot can be interpreted either way.Appointing Davos could be spun either way.Nobles are typically appointed by birth status, Stannis bends and appoints Davos the smuggler.Or it can be taken as Nobles are typically appointed by birth, fuk that I'm Stannis, I won't bend I will appoint anybody I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Stan cannot be broken or bent or reasoned with. Its gonna be so much fun when he will stakes or burn every and last of bolton's family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Stan cannot be broken or bent or reasoned with. He can be reasoned with. He listens to sound advice, like he did with Davos and Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iridescence Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Wow, suddenly I have a new kind of appreciation of Renly. While I'm not sold on him being "noble" or "honourable", I'm convinced of his political and logistical skill. Using overwhelming numbers and resources to pressure enemies in giving up while minimizing bloodshed, I can respect that. He doesn't have to be Ned Good to hate war casualties, like Roose who is neither evil nor good, but likes peach in this lands. Either way, I'm impressed. Renly's made one huge blunder. He should have been satisfied with being hand of the king/right-hand man. His brother is the one with the rightful claim which is very important in a feudal society. Together Renly and Stannis would be unstoppable (and the story would be short and boring :) ) But Renly thinking "People like me better so I should be king. " pretty much cost his family everything and is whole the reason for the whole war of the 5 kings lasting for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The Renly love baffles me, the man is vain and disloyal and his disloyalty has put Baratheon line in jeopardy. If the stormlanders leige lord had declared for Stannis, u know the knight of flowers would have joined the fray as well. Stannis and Renly together would have had Cersei, Joff, and the Imp's head on spikes The Tyrells hate Stannis, they're either going against him or are not getting involved in the war at all. Also, Renly didn't have any reason to believe Stannis when he claimed to be the rightful king, he had no proof of it whatsoever, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Renly's made one huge blunder. He should have been satisfied with being hand of the king/right-hand man. His brother is the one with the rightful claim which is very important in a feudal society. Together Renly and Stannis would be unstoppable (and the story would be short and boring :) ) But Renly thinking "People like me better so I should be king. " pretty much cost his family everything and is whole the reason for the whole war of the 5 kings lasting for years. Together, Renly and Stannis would have had the army that Stannis had at the end of ACoK, they wouldn't have been unstoppable because the source of Renly's strength was the support of the Tyrells, which Stannis was never going to have due to their mutual animosity after the siege of Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion. And his brother doesn't have a rightful claim, his nephew does. His brother was as much a usurper as he was, the way he saw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iridescence Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Together, Renly and Stannis would have had the army that Stannis had at the end of ACoK, they wouldn't have been unstoppable because the source of Renly's strength was the support of the Tyrells, which Stannis was never going to have due to their mutual animosity after the siege of Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion. I'm assuming that the Tyrells would have followed Stannis if Renly decided to join forces with him after the Tyrells had declared for Renly. I don't think the Storm's End issue is that large between them. It was a long time ago and was a war situation. Who knows though you could be right I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I'm assuming that the Tyrells would have followed Stannis if Renly decided to join forces with him after the Tyrells had declared for Renly. I don't think the Storm's End issue is that large between them. It was a long time ago and was a war situation. Who knows though you could be right I suppose. Why would they? They support Renly because he offers to make Marge a Queen, if he's not a King, Marge is no Queen, and the Tyrells have no reason to back him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Why would they? They support Renly because he offers to make Marge a Queen, if he's not a King, Marge is no Queen, and the Tyrells have no reason to back him up. They still would have a daughter married to the heir. Which is better than no connection to the throne at all. I mean that's still a gain and not a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 They still would have a daughter married to the heir. Which is better than no connection to the throne at all. I mean that's still a gain and not a loss. Why have the daughter married to the heir, that will most likely never inherit, and have the King hate you, when you can marry the actual King and work hand in hand with him for no additional cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Why have the daughter married to the heir, that will most likely never inherit, and have the King hate you, when you can marry the actual King and work hand in hand with him for no additional cost? I thought this was a scenario where Renly joined his brother. If they don't back Renly he just joins Stannis with the Stormlords. And the marriage actually binds them to him. If they choose to ignore it and go back to Highgarden Marge might still be married to the heir, but the Baratheons would show no favors to the Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I thought this was a scenario where Renly joined his brother. If they don't back Renly he just joins Stannis with the Stormlords. And the marriage actually binds them to him. If they choose to ignore it and go back to Highgarden Marge might still be married to the heir, but the Baratheons would show no favors to the Tyrells. I'm not talking about Renly, I'm talking about Joffrey... which is what they did in ACoK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denam_Pavel Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Why have the daughter married to the heir, that will most likely never inherit, and have the King hate you, when you can marry the actual King and work hand in hand with him for no additional cost?Stannis doesn't hate the Tyrells, for a man who can't go 20 minutes without erupting into another rant about Robert this and Renly that he barely seems to pay them any mind. And Mace has even less reason to hate Stannis, besieging Storm's End was just a pretext to sit out the war. He wasn't the one that starved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Stannis doesn't hate the Tyrells, for a man who can't go 20 minutes without erupting into another rant about Robert this and Renly that he barely seems to pay them any mind.And Mace has even less reason to hate Stannis, besieging Storm's End was just a pretext to sit out the war. He wasn't the one that starved. Stannis highly dislikes the Tyrell after Robert's Rebellion, it's mentioned in AGoT when it is pointed out the Stannis thought Robert shouldn't have been lenient on them for their support of the Targ dynasty. (And after for their support of Renly in the Prologue of ACoK) Mace held a full siege against Stannis and lost, with Stannis calling for his head directly after. He sure as hell doesn't want the guy who called for his execution and punishment on the Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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