Stannis is not iron.

[Jasta11]

Stannis would complain about anything Robert did, he was looking for something to complain about.

What Robert did made the most sense; put his heir on Dragonstone, and give Storm's End to the remaining brother. If Robert had given Stannis nothing, and Stannis felt he deserved something because he held a castle, then if Robert had said "Nah, we're gonna wait and give it to my kids", Stannis would have took THAT for a slight.

We're talking about a man willing to allow people to be burnt alive to further his own goals, regardless of any crime they may have commited. He cares soooo much about the realm tho.

Except his problem is not that Robert gave him Dragonstone, it's that he gave Renly Storm's End, along with all the vassals that come with it. By custom Bob should either have kept SE for himself or also given it to Stannis.

But don't let that get in the way of you complaining about complainers or anything.

[Sullen]

I think that Renly (or Stannis if he had won the Blackwater), would have been given the same treatment as Kevan and Pycelle. Varys would at some point have needed to get rid of them. While Renly would have probably taken the throne if Stannis had not intervened, i don't think he would have kept it in the long term.

I think both Renly and Stannis would have been smart enough to have Varys, Pycelle, and Littlefinger removed if they had taken the throne.

[unSonofStannis]

I think both Renly and Stannis would have been smart enough to have Varys, Pycelle, and Littlefinger removed if they had taken the throne.

Not sure if they wouldve removed Pycelle but I doubt Renly wouldve removed Varys or Littlefinger he was too dumb. And they wouldve both fled if Stannis took the throne.

[Sullen]

Not sure if they wouldve removed Pycelle but I doubt Renly wouldve removed Varys or Littlefinger he was too dumb. And they wouldve both fled if Stannis took the throne.

Renly was not dumb, if anything he was extremely aware of his political surroundings and the dangers of plotting in King's Landing.

[unSonofStannis]

Renly was not dumb, if anything he was extremely aware of his political surroundings and the dangers of plotting in King's Landing.

Based on what evidence? Cressen described him as just wanting everyone to notice him.

[Boarsbane]

Based on what evidence? Cressen described him as just wanting everyone to notice him.

What evidence do you have that he was stupid? Loving attention doesn't make someone dumb.

[Sullen]

Based on what evidence? Cressen described him as just wanting everyone to notice him.

Liking to be the centre of attention does not mean he is stupid.

And based on what evidence? His actual plotting. The fact that time after time, his plans were extremely solid, and the fact that he was smart enough to know that hanging around in King's Landing after Robert's death would have been extremely dangerous. (And so he flees)

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I don't hate Stannis. He is the ultimate tragic figure and yes he is made out of iron.

[Stormland's Fury]

What evidence do you have that he was stupid? Loving attention doesn't make someone dumb.

But reckless. I calso could impair his ability to listen to the right people and/or advice.

I don't hate Stannis. He is the ultimate tragic figure and yes he is made out of iron.

This is why I love him.

[Sullen]

But reckless. I calso could impair his ability to listen to the right people and/or advice.

Renly was not reckless, his moves were incredibly calculated and involved a minimal amount of risk possible.

[Waylin Stark]

Stannis didn't flat out execute Davos because he saw good in a smuggler who decided to help a king and his family in time of war, at great personal risk.

He rewarded Davos for this, but only after punishing him for previous crimes.

There's no use in blindly following the law to the letter. Stannis doesn't do that.

He believes in justice and fair punishment.

He's Iron all right.

[Stormland's Fury]

Renly was not reckless, his moves were incredibly calculated and involved a minimal amount of risk possible.

Let me add, possibly reckless.

He's the kind of person who could listen to bad advice as long it appeals to his ego.

I like Renly, but still he had some flaws.

[Sullen]

Let me add, possibly reckless.

He's the kind of person who could listen to bad advice as long it appeals to his ego.

I like Renly, but still he had some flaws.

Of course he had some flaws, he saw himself as perfect, didn't mind people dying when it served his purposes, mocked people in their backs, liked excess, and was rather lax in his duty as Master of Law.

Being stupid was not one of them though, and he knew that his ego wasn't everything. A true egomaniac would never allowed Robb to keep calling himself "King in the North"... even in title only.

His campaign was pretty much failproof if not the "out of nowhere" use of a Shadow Baby.

[Stormland's Fury]

Of course he had some flaws, he saw himself as perfect, didn't mind people dying when it served his purposes, mocked people in their backs, liked excess, and was rather lax in his duty as Master of Law.

Being stupid was not one of them though, and he knew that his ego wasn't everything. A true egomaniac would never allowed Robb to keep calling himself "King in the North"... even in title only.

His campaign was pretty much failproof if not the "out of nowhere" use of a Shadow Baby.

I never said he was stupid. And being vain doesn't mean being an egomaniac.

His campaign was foolproof but doesn't mean it was overly complex.

[Sullen]

I never said he was stupid. And being vain doesn't mean being an egomaniac.

His campaign was foolproof but doesn't mean it was overly complex.

You didn't say that, but Son of Stannis did.

And agreed, his campaign wasn't overly complex, but no campaign so far really was either.

[Kate Poem]

He kept by his word and morals during the whole series, and would have managed to win the war while extremely minimizing losses on his side in a matter of a few moves if not for a magical killer queef.

Which words and morals? As member of Small Council he MUST give some oath to Robert, his king. After death of Robert Renly flied from King's Landing and call himself "king". "Oldest son of my brother, my nephew, kiiss my nose, I have your rights in my backside". He did'nt know about Cersei and Jaime's incest.

[Sullen]

Which words and morals? As member of Small Council he MUST give some oath to Robert, his king. After death of Robert Renly flied from King's Landing and call himself "king". "Oldest son of my brother, my nephew, kiiss my nose, I have your rights in my backside". He did'nt know about Cersei and Jaime's incest.

I never claimed his morals were about respecting the laws of succession, Renly was all about taking the Lannisters out of power while keeping losses minimal.

He first tried by replacing Cersei by Marge, then by offering Eddard to act as soon as Robert died, and finally by having to crown himself. It was his goal from when we are introduced to him until the moment he died.

[Mikkel]

I never claimed his morals were about respecting the laws of succession, Renly was all about taking the Lannisters out of power while keeping losses minimal.

He first tried by replacing Cersei by Marge, then by offering Eddard to act as soon as Robert died, and finally by having to crown himself. It was his goal from when we are introduced to him until the moment he died.

You're not wrong, but Renly's plans are all about elevating Renly first, removing Lannisters second - it's just that the two things go hand in hand, but the end goal in all cases is power & influence for Renly. Not that I particularly blame him here, that's no different than any other player, I just don't think attributing some selfless anti-evil-Lannister motive does his character any favors.

You're right about his plans keeping losses to a minimum though, at least in his faction, but part of his plan was starving the smallfolk of King's Landing, so it's not all tourneys and pretty speeches. Which is why I'm willing to label him "solid" despite outward appearances to the contrary: He was willing to get dirty and play rough, he was just smart enough to fool the majority into thinking otherwise.

[Stormland's Fury]

This is why I don't get why people think Renly was morally more in "the right" than Stannis.

He was starving out the population, then dragging out the whole thing before finally sacking the city on top of that.

Stannis just wanted to finish it as quick and painless as possible. There even many indications that the actual sack would be much more subdued under his leadership.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

You guys do realize that Stannis' very name is a joke, don't you?

Stannis - sounds like

Stannous - from Stannum, the Latin term for Tin. (Which is why the chemical symbol for Tin is Sn.)

Stannis is the Tin Man - he doesn't have a heart. (or does he?)

And like Tin, he's been getting a bit bendy lately.