US Politics - The old thread is dead, long live the old thread

[The Iceman of the North]

How about you check his own site?

What exactly in this piece suggest that he supports Ghadaffi?

[1918me]

He lamented that American bombs in 1986 killed Quadafi's daughter (that's how it's spelled there). That's the only mention of him there. The piece is mainly about what a bad idea it is to rain bombs on poor countries. I fail to see how this constitutes support for Quadafi, but then again, I'm not a racist crank who sees Jewish conspiracies behind every corner, so it's possible I'm not equipped to properly interpret that piece.

Ah, I see. I'll be honest, I only skimmed the article, but that was the gist I got from it as well.

The only racist is you who I am guessing supported Gaddafi as well I never said anything about a Jewish conspiracy either but nice try

How is Dante a racist, exactly?

[Madfunkymonkey]

So do I have this correct? Bundy's cattle was Occupying Federal property. Since that is illegal the Feds came in to force the cattle to leave by locking them up. So Bundy and others start protesting and most of you are saying that he is wrong because he and them are breaking the law.

I'm pretty sure that the people who were Occupying Federal property a couple of years ago were also breaking the law in the exact same way but I get the feeling the same people who are against Bundy were for the people a couple of years ago.

Seems like hypocrisy to me.

[Suttree]

So do I have this correct? Bundy's cattle was Occupying Federal property. Since that is illegal the Feds came in to force the cattle to leave by locking them up. So Bundy and others start protesting and most of you are saying that he is wrong because he and them are breaking the law.

Here is a timeline going back 20+ years if you're interested.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

[Shryke]

So do I have this correct? Bundy's cattle was Occupying Federal property. Since that is illegal the Feds came in to force the cattle to leave by locking them up. So Bundy and others start protesting and most of you are saying that he is wrong because he and them are breaking the law.

I'm pretty sure that the people who were Occupying Federal property a couple of years ago were also breaking the law in the exact same way but I get the feeling the same people who are against Bundy were for the people a couple of years ago.

Seems like hypocrisy to me.

It seems like hypocrisy because despite the conversation covering all aspects of this case several times in the last 10 pages or so, you still have most of the details wrong.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Evidence of protester breaking the law? I'd say the cause that brought them there, failure to pay for use of land, is against the law. Advocating illegal and anti-constitutional stances seems seditious to me. Refusing to recognize the authority of the federal government seems seditious to me.

"Sedition" isn't a word that should ever be used in America

I doubt the progressive warriors posting on here care one way or another. This is an old white dude in a cowboy hat, I bet his ancestors gave small pox blankets to the Indians. Failure to pay fees to the Fed Gov for a service that wasn't provided puts you up there with the Mexican cartels and Al Qaeda or something. Heck if Bundy had been a member of either the Fed Gov would be giving him guns rather than stealing his cows.

Identity politics does have a lot to do with it.

[DanteGabriel]

Here is a timeline going back 20+ years if you're interested.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

He's not interested. He just surfaces every once in a while when he thinks he's understood enough to try and catch a liberal being hypocritical.

[DanteGabriel]

"Sedition" isn't a word that should ever be used in America

To be clear, it doesn't matter to me if these desert yahoos are actually being seditious. I just note that these kinds of guys tend to regard themselves as super-patriots who love America but actually are very anti-American in words and actions.

[awesome possum]

To be clear, it doesn't matter to me if these desert yahoos are actually being seditious. I just note that these kinds of guys tend to regard themselves as super-patriots who love America but actually are very anti-American in words and actions.

Right? Bundy does not recognize the federal government of the United States of America. Somehow, to right wing blowhards, that means he is a Super American Patriot.

[Mazigh]

Right? Bundy does not recognize the federal government of the United States of America. Somehow, to right wing blowhards, that means he is a Super American Patriot.

"[T]he States can best govern our home concerns and the general government our foreign ones. I wish, therefore . . . never to see all offices transferred to Washington, where, further withdrawn from the eyes of the people, they may more secretly be bought and sold at market." - Thomas Jefferson

Was Thomas Jefferson anti American?

[Madfunkymonkey]

He's not interested. He just surfaces every once in a while when he thinks he's understood enough to try and catch a liberal being hypocritical.

So when a liberal protests against the Federal government its great but when a conservative protests it's wrong?

Thanks for letting me know. I understand now. smh

When a conservative posts here he/she is silly but a person with any other political belief posts here it's not silly?

Ok, I understand that too. smh

[Shryke]

"[T]he States can best govern our home concerns and the general government our foreign ones. I wish, therefore . . . never to see all offices transferred to Washington, where, further withdrawn from the eyes of the people, they may more secretly be bought and sold at market." - Thomas Jefferson

Was Thomas Jefferson anti American?

He was a hypocrite who changed his mind on this whole "watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots" thing the minute he had any power.

[DanteGabriel]

So when a liberal protests against the Federal government its great but when a conservative protests it's wrong?

Thanks for letting me know. I understand now. smh

When a conservative posts here he/she is silly but a person with any other political belief posts here it's not silly?

Ok, I understand that too. smh

Where did I say that any liberal in particular protesting against the federal government was right? Where did I say that any conservative protests against the government are wrong? I imagine you'd have to judge these things on a case-by-case basis instead of reducing it to one side or the other, but I know well how ill-equipped you are to handle subtlety.

If a liberal protested for his right to ignore traffic laws, I'd find that pretty silly. If a conservative protested that drone strikes or America's coddling of the Israeli government is wrong, I'd say they have good points.

Likewise, conservative posts are not by nature silly, as Scot is a conservative who is not silly. FLOW was a conservative who was wrong a lot but not silly. Tormund was a libertarian who was not silly. Problem is, it's hard to find conservatives who post here who make good arguments. You are a conservative whose bludgeon-simple posting style discredits your movement.

SMH OMFG YOLO LOLZ DING DING

A Princeton study sounds the death knell for democracy in the U.S.

Their analysis indicates that this trend began before the Citizens United and the recent Citizens United Strikes Back decisions, but I'd contend that these decisions solidify the trend they describe.

ETA: The article points out that this trend does not depend on which party is in power. Both parties kowtow to the wealthy elites.

My reaction to that study was, "Was it ever alive?"

I firmly believe this country was created by wealthy elites to perpetuate their own power. It was founded by old rich white guys who thought they paid too much in taxes. Nothing has changed. I think the 20th century may have been a high water mark in empowerment of non-elites, but Reagan and everything after has gone a long way to roll back that progress.

[Wise Fool]

So, moving away from the subject of Mazigh's fantasy world.

The issue with the Bundy thing is it relates to the whole Tea Party notion of overthrowing, violently if necessary, the US government and Obama in particular. From Tea Party Nation letter in January:

My view is that to stem what appears to be a veritable flood of federal usurpations, we should commit to a multitude of remedies. As said, we can, after all, walk and chew gum at the same time. While censure is certainly a compelling action to take, we must also think in terms of what will actually stop this Progressive tyranny cold. The obvious answer is, of course, State Nullification of all federal actions (legislation/court rulings/bureaucratic regulations/executives orders) which do not comport with the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land.

Realistically, all peaceful remedies should be on the table and vigorously acted upon until such time that constitutional order is restored, the doctrine of separation of powers is fully practiced, and co-equality of the States with the Federal Government is achieved.

Going forward, the most compelling remedial grassroots action we should all get solidly behind is, of course, "Operation American Spring" which will be launched in earnest on May 16th. I urge readers to check it out on the Patriots for America site. You have the option of participating in the protracted occupation or volunteering your services and talents in support of the operation.

Finally and very importantly, if all of these peaceful remedies fail to achieve our constitutional goals, then ALL other remedies sanctioned by our Founders and "natural law" must necessarily be relied upon by the American people. Let the Founders ALWAYS be our guide.

So the militia, and by extension right-wing media, and right-wing internet fanboys in blind defense of same, weren't there to simply protect some cows, but to stop "Progressive tyranny." Violently, if necessary. That crap about "natural law" is a reference to the American Spring official page itself:

the law of nature rules. A fluffy, cuddly lamb gets eaten by a mean old wolf is not an illegal or immoral event...the law of nature. When some greedy, self-serving occupant of the White House or Congress, or elements outside America, is threatening our existence, our freedom, our liberty, our Constitution, our life resources, our America, then we fight back to destroy the threat and there is nothing immoral or illegal about it. When the government becomes lawless, then "we the people" no longer are obligated to follow the government......there is no law when government picks and chooses for political purposes or personal agenda. At this time the government is performing as a lawless entity......

A duck cannot be turned into a fox; an elephant cannot be turned into a flea; the laws of nature will not permit.
Likewise, a nation ordained and principled by the laws of nature, sovereign, free, with liberty for all cannot naturally become a nation guided by royalty, decrees, tyranny, elitist, self-serving criminals. The former has proven desirable, the latter has proven human pain.
"We can become a nation guided by royalty IF "we the people" beguiled by the government in surrender to our lusts for that which we have not earned --for what is not natural --if we have become intoxicated by unbroken success" as Lincoln proclaimed in March 30 ,1863 call for fasting, humiliation, and prayer--we can very easily heap to ourselves leaders, and with itching ears, be turned from the Truth to become enslaved by the LIE."
The United States of America (elephant) while embracing the "LIE" is teetering on the abyss of becoming a sniveling, blood sucking, undesirable nation (flea).

OPERATION AMERICAN SPRING will be a gigantic step in removing the flea infestation that is sucking the blood out of America.

This rambling and incoherent rhetoric about fleas and ducks and natural law is mostly just to suggest that might makes right. (Also, a nice shout-out to the whole "my opponents are blood sucking sub-human vermin" propaganda tactic. Always a favorite of the extreme right, that.)

But some of the organizers of this event have already stated they intend to launch a guerilla war to overthrow Obama. From Fox News contributor Erik Rush's site, Dr Jim Garrow says:

We are seeing ever larger groups of people calling down the Marxist in the White House and his oligarchic machinations. We are reading more and more publications who are calling for Obama’s impeachment and removal. We are sensing the almost panicked utterances of a bevy of hapless “spokesmen” for the ruling elite marched in front of the cameras and interpreting for us the “reality” that they want us to see. We call those lies and spin and obfuscation. What is wonderful is that the majority of the public have caught on and are ticked.

Soon the calls to action will start to be louder, more vocal, and as the elites make more and darker moves to ensure that they have guns and might and power that will put us in our place. Then the moment, the event, the trigger mechanism, the final straw, will shine the light of reality on the nations slide into despotism.

The revolution will start and if the people are prepared the guerrilla war that Obama fears will begin. It is a war that he knows he cannot win. His attempt to wipe out the population has already been thwarted, he now must go to Plan B. The new wrinkle is the missing nukes, the military that are running interference, and the obvious “litmus test” of loyalty that he is demanding that is producing a backlash of realization for the military and “We the People”.

Your days are numbered Bathhouse Barry, “Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin”, the writing on the wall has returned and you Sir “have been weighed in the balance and been found wanting”. May God grant us His favor as we join forces to take down this tyrant and restore Liberty and Freedom to His people.

Garrow's lunacy is pretty well documented (as if the above rant isn't enough), but it seems he was alluding to a hoped-for "trigger mechanism" that will provoke a revolution. The Bundy event could have been one had law enforcement not "tucked tail and run" or "shit their pants" as right-wing troll crew members gleefully describe. Because as before mentioned, it was hoped that by placing women at the front, the image televised around the world would be one of "rogue federal officers" shooting women. That would definitely have been a PR coup for the pro-coup crowd.

So in short, Obama's an evil Marxist Progressive Tyrant, Bundy, and militia groups in general, are heroic revolutionaries of the kind that will wage war against the United States Government and overthrow it.

Which is to say that the right wing extremists are like a delusional criminal trying to commit suicide by cop, only the delusion is widespread and they're trying to paint it in terms of high political rhetoric. And some crap about fleas and the laws of nature too. Whatever.

[davos]

"[T]he States can best govern our home concerns and the general government our foreign ones. I wish, therefore . . . never to see all offices transferred to Washington, where, further withdrawn from the eyes of the people, they may more secretly be bought and sold at market." - Thomas Jefferson

Was Thomas Jefferson anti American?

I think you should actually take the time to read and understand a quote you use prior to posting it, as it does not say what you seem to think it does. Opposing having all offices and government functions taken on by the federal government does not equate to either desiring no federal government or believing that federal laws are invalid.

[1918me]

A Princeton study sounds the death knell for democracy in the U.S.

Their analysis indicates that this trend began before the Citizens United and the recent Citizens United Strikes Back decisions, but I'd contend that these decisions solidify the trend they describe.

ETA: The article points out that this trend does not depend on which party is in power. Both parties kowtow to the wealthy elites.

I don't think we need a study to tell us this, although it's nice to have some solid proof that US democracy is basically non-existent.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

He was a hypocrite who changed his mind on this whole "watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots" thing the minute he had any power.

And what's particularly wonderful about this latest instance Mazigh not knowing a fucking thing about anything is that Jefferson used his power to facilitate the purchase by the Federal government of a vast swath of Western territory. This was a move which was criticized, at the time, for being an unconstitutional overreach by the Federal government.

[DanteGabriel]

And what's particularly wonderful about this latest instance Mazigh not knowing a fucking thing about anything is that Jefferson used his power to facilitate the purchase by the Federal government of a vast swath of Western territory. This was a move which was criticized, at the time, for being an unconstitutional overreach by the Federal government.

Jefferson probably supported Gaddafi too.

[Mazigh]

Jefferson probably supported Gaddafi too.

That is funny because he sent marines to kick out the Turks in Tripoli

[Madfunkymonkey]

Link.

From that Reuters article:

Then there's the fact that Bundy's allies planned on using their own women as human shields to deliberately increase outrage if things did turn to violence, and that Bundy claims he doesn't recognize the existence of the US government in the first place, (from the first article linked)

and that makes this a mighty interesting cause that all the right wing American patriots are showing such support for...

That picture doesn't prove anything. How can we tell if that isn't a Federal agent? Or a rancher who has paid his fees and his on the side of the Federal government?

We all know that the media will slant things to go with their story. Just ask the guy at NBC who edited the George Zimmerman 911 tape.

Oh and just so you all know, I believe that Bundy is wrong and should pay his fees.