Heresy 109

[wolfmaid7]

With all due respect, as you can plainly see, some of us joined this forum much later than you. Whatever you write, I take as your own opinion unless you state otherwise. Whether it has been previously discussed or not is irrelevant for participants of this discussion. Whatever you established or think you established (whoever "you" are) is not definitive since each new member of the forum has something to add to the forum. So, it would be nice and respectful to do what Tyryan Lannister has been doing and that is to refer to a specific thread, so that we can read what was discussed there. Since you have not done that and I'm not a green seer, I can only go by by what you write. I disputed your claim and provided your quote. You didn't even bother to respond. You just said it was concluded at some other thread. Case closed. So, why do you bother with this thread then when all is concluded in your head?

Seriously what's with the chip on the shoulder?

:agree:

And, with reference to Addicted's remark on trauma its important to keep in mind that it is the direwolves and the bond with them which makes the Stark kids unique; if trauma alone was to trigger the skinchanging/warging ability the whole of Westeros would be doing it. Here we have six children and six direwolves and everything revolves around that simple pairing.

Agreed and to go a bit further on what trauma means in the sense of the story we have something that happens which makes the "psyche vulnerable". In the case of v6 it made him vulnerable to act,in the case of the Starks the arrival of the Direwolves at the point where the family was going to be seperated made it possible for the m to act on the Stark kids.

Both Quotes that you provided took place AFTER he had become a Warg, so they cannot be considered a 'traumatic event' that triggered him to becoming a warg...

By your definition of trauma, everyone in Westeros should be a Warg.

No it did not Addicted you are "WRONG AGAIN" you have not read the sequence of events that occured at all.So let me lay it down for you.

V6 was born sickly so sickly that according to him his parents didn't expect him to live long and in fact he wasn't given his name until his 2 name day,by which time the name his sister nicked named him in the womb stuck(Lump).Not expected him to live,his parents did not pay him the attention he needed but instead focused on his healthy brother.This emotional sucky event led him to seek solace with the dogs. His illness led to him being a neglected child his environment was not one to foster emotional health,he said he would run with the dogs to escape his father's fury which indicates long term emotional and physical abuse form his father.

His case is not unlike the Stark kids who's lives were turned upside down by the knowledge that they were going to be split up,some kids with dad ,some with mom.Jon leaving for the Wall etc. The difference in this case is that someone made danm sure that the Direwolves " their counterparts/doubles" ( this is very very important) were in place to initiate the bond.

He wasn't neglected after he started entering the dogs it was from birth because look at it from the point of view of the parents,who would spend time with a child that was going to die. I know it's hard to admit when you are wrong sometimes but try it you might like it.

@ Yield: agree with your above post

On the whole trauma/deprivation/bond issue:

Working off of what Yield demonstrates above, the bond already exists. However, the Stark kids are largely unable to access the bond beyond a sense of feeling a special connection until after the traumas occur. The traumas are not what create the bond; they are what allows active access to the bond.

Excellent way to put it trauma to the psyche allowd the Direwolves to infiltrate.Though i will "not' use the word bond but i would say gift to "skinchange" in this case.

There are a couple of aspects to this debate about the warg/skinchanging and trauma or sensory deprivation trigger that I think are being overlooked.

First is the fact that the direwolves are indeed pups. This I think is very important. Would a grown direwolf be willing to bond with a person? What would the motivation be for a predator that can just about out match all others want with a human? Particularly since it's humans that have hunted them to near extinction. I'm more inclined to see that bond between the kids and the pups as mutually beneficial in this case. The pups would have died if they hadn't been found. The Stark children learn and develop magically due to the bond they form with the direwolves. We may find that this link is what ultimately saves House Stark. And even if it doesn't their bonds have certainly brought them back to the roots of their lineage since their sigil is a direwolf and it's a probably a large part of why they became the Kings of Winter/ in the North.

The second bit that I think is rather important as well is the trauma that is suffered by the direwolves. They have lost their mother and are sucking at drying milk. We've talked a lot about how the Stark kids suffered but not at all about what the wolves have. Ghost recounts that they were days without the protection and warmth of mummy, wandering around blind and crying. That's pretty traumatic for puppies. Anyone that's taken home a newly weaned pup knows about separation anxiety in the puppy and how they need a period of adjustment. These guys were not even weaned.

That said I think the trauma part is only important in it's effect. In other words, had not the circumstances been as they are, the bonding would not take place. If mother wolf had killed the stag and lived would the pups have even encountered a human? If Rickon wasn't left all alone would he have taken solace in his wolf? Had Arya felt at all in control of her life would she have escaped into her wolf at night to feel strong? Would Bran have slipped into Summer if he could still clime? I disagree Modesty that Robb hasn't had trauma, he has. It's pretty traumatic to have an entire homestead, the surrounding lands, his younger brothers and the rule of the entire North thrust onto 15 year old shoulders. And that was with both his parents alive. What came after I wouldn't wish on any teenager. Robb takes strength from his bond with Greywind in the same way Jon took strength from Ghost. Both boys were in situations that were beyond them.

Sansa on the other hand is an interesting puzzle. She has probably suffered the worst of psychological traumas than any of them. However she still dreams of Lady and even in the dream state memories she takes strength from Lady. When she is in the Fingers we see her taking comfort from the old bitch that crawls into her bed. She wishes it was Lady, but the fact that she yearns for that connection is indicative that there was one even before she suffered any losses. So again I think the trauma is secondary in the children. It's a good catalyst. The sensory deprivation is as well. Neither I think though is essential. The bond would grow regardless. The key I think is in the fact that the children are children and the pups are pups and as such they both grow and learn together.

An excellent post Yield and i agree with you for the most part,except the bit about would a grown Direwolf bond a person. I would say no but not because they are predators,but because they are "Double Walkers".I'll explain that more when i do the OP on "Shadows" but it is very cruicial to the plot that the EXACT amount of pups matched the Stark kids "perfectly".What are the chances of that happening? I also have no doubt the Mama Direwolf was a familiar to someone else. This is why i've said that the issue of them being pups is mince,it doesn't change the integral piece that GRRM put in which is that the PUPS MIRRORED THE STARKS EXACTLY,EVEN DOWN TO THE ONE WHITE AS SNOW.

I'm not shouting..lol but i feel i have to emphazise how important that is.So i agree that a grown Direwolf would not bond with "anyone" but Direwolf pups would not either.If a Direwolf is lucky enough to meet it's proxy fine if not,they are just another animal running in the forest.

I assume you are referring to this quote.

Firstly, I don't read it as fainting, because she would not fall on her knees and stay on her knees if she fainted. She would fall to the ground and then wake up. Secondly, no one is all these books mentioned any "snow flake initiation", so that is purely your speculation with no basis in the text. Thirdly, the quote explains her urge to connect with northern magic, but since she has no means (I explained this in my previous post), she starts recreating Winterfell. Later, LF comes and helps her with it. They finish the castle together while the dawn is breaking. I wonder how would you read that?

Firstly, are we really going argue about wheter she fell or was kneeling? The point is ML is that Sansa "Blacked out" is that acceptable? Secondly,the "Snowflake Communion" as coined by BC is a symbolism used by GRRM with regards to certain characters(in relation to ice) ,thus far Sansa and Jon have had such events happen to them.Sansa in the Vale,Jon has had a few including the one he accepted with the "Dance with me" the other case is when Othor shoved his hand down Jon's throat. This are all symbolisms associated with 'initiations" in myth so when you start seeing the author doing it more than once you take notice.

Robb had one with the Snowflake in the hair when they left WF ,Jon noticed it and Sam also had one which Jon also notes.

The difference between the present generation and their immediate forebears is the arrival of the direwolves; it was they, per the text, who initiated the contacts and they who might turn out in the end to be the dominant partners in what's going on.

They may also have opened the way so to speak for the greenseeing process to begin. Trauma, or more properly the sensory deprivation certainly appears to be a necessity for the opening of the third eye, but what's unique about the process is neither the trauma nor the sensory deprivation, but the intervention of the direwolves.

BIG TIME AGREEMENT WITH THAT :agree: :bowdown:

It is indeed clear, but it may also be moot in that the only character we've come across who could skinchange wolves [not direwolves] was Varamyr and he's had his come-uppance

BC we are of the same mind with this,and again i'd add the fact that the Direwolves are a member of the Old Races.So who does it benefit to make sure that they end up in the inner circle of people with the gene that makes them suseptible to the DIrewolves "call".

[Eira Seren]

I'm wondering what, if any, price Mel will ultimately have to pay for her consuming so much. How much goes into maintaining her glamour, for instance? Maybe the red lot are trained to keep the balance between taking and giving, but she's ignoring it because to give any of it back would damage her beauty, or she'd simply consider it a sign of weakness.

Yeah, she keeps making sacrifices (of other people), I wonder what exactly she'll have to sacrifice.

Exactly so, and that's just one of many very solid and indeed very explicit pointers in the text to the fact that while Jon's father was most likely Rhaegar, he is a Stark not a Targaryen and his destiny lies up in the ice, not riding a dragon to victory as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

A happy thought occurs to me that the ruined throne room which comes up in the show visions, if realised, might even be Jon's work :devil:

Rolling Stone's new issue has Kit Harington on the cover with the tagline 'The Man Who Would Be King.' The inside article doesn't mention anything about kings, just that Jon Snow is ambitious :cool4:

Also, the issue contains a nice interview with GRRM.

There are a couple of aspects to this debate about the warg/skinchanging and trauma or sensory deprivation trigger that I think are being overlooked.

First is the fact that the direwolves are indeed pups. This I think is very important. Would a grown direwolf be willing to bond with a person? What would the motivation be for a predator that can just about out match all others want with a human? Particularly since it's humans that have hunted them to near extinction. I'm more inclined to see that bond between the kids and the pups as mutually beneficial in this case. The pups would have died if they hadn't been found. The Stark children learn and develop magically due to the bond they form with the direwolves. We may find that this link is what ultimately saves House Stark. And even if it doesn't their bonds have certainly brought them back to the roots of their lineage since their sigil is a direwolf and it's a probably a large part of why they became the Kings of Winter/ in the North.

The second bit that I think is rather important as well is the trauma that is suffered by the direwolves. They have lost their mother and are sucking at drying milk. We've talked a lot about how the Stark kids suffered but not at all about what the wolves have. Ghost recounts that they were days without the protection and warmth of mummy, wandering around blind and crying. That's pretty traumatic for puppies. Anyone that's taken home a newly weaned pup knows about separation anxiety in the puppy and how they need a period of adjustment. These guys were not even weaned.

That said I think the trauma part is only important in it's effect. In other words, had not the circumstances been as they are, the bonding would not take place. If mother wolf had killed the stag and lived would the pups have even encountered a human? If Rickon wasn't left all alone would he have taken solace in his wolf? Had Arya felt at all in control of her life would she have escaped into her wolf at night to feel strong? Would Bran have slipped into Summer if he could still clime? I disagree Modesty that Robb hasn't had trauma, he has. It's pretty traumatic to have an entire homestead, the surrounding lands, his younger brothers and the rule of the entire North thrust onto 15 year old shoulders. And that was with both his parents alive. What came after I wouldn't wish on any teenager. Robb takes strength from his bond with Greywind in the same way Jon took strength from Ghost. Both boys were in situations that were beyond them.

Sansa on the other hand is an interesting puzzle. She has probably suffered the worst of psychological traumas than any of them. However she still dreams of Lady and even in the dream state memories she takes strength from Lady. When she is in the Fingers we see her taking comfort from the old bitch that crawls into her bed. She wishes it was Lady, but the fact that she yearns for that connection is indicative that there was one even before she suffered any losses. So again I think the trauma is secondary in the children. It's a good catalyst. The sensory deprivation is as well. Neither I think though is essential. The bond would grow regardless. The key I think is in the fact that the children are children and the pups are pups and as such they both grow and learn together.

Hmm, I think you're right, it's a catalyst. We haven't really explored what happens when the animal dies and the connection remains, though I'm assuming that Lady's spirit is still alive to a degree in Sansa and to a degree in the world (the trees, rocks, etc, as the Singers would say).

Is this why Beric is able to resurrect Cat?

Also, it seems like we were about to talk about the connection with fire, it really does seem like there's some kind of catalyst there, and I wonder if it's similarly traumatic? Dany appears to be undergoing some: married off to a guy whose culture is completely foreign to her, her brother turns against her and it becomes clear to her how manipulative and rather abusive he's become. . .

Mel doesn't give us many details, but it seems she was a slave, and sold at auction?

[Jojen]

What is a snowflake communion and what does it have to do with warging?

It's the Rainbow Connection for Northerners.

[Jojen]

Yes, Jon heard the silent wolf, Ghost, call out to him. This is the beginning of the theory that the direwolves initiated the warg bond with the Starks. And I agree that Jon/Ghost is important and different than the other Stark kids. But, I see that Jon is commited to the Ice side of the equation. Ghost belongs to the old gods.

And it's no surprise that he's named Ghost, since ghosts are neither dead nor alive, neither fully here nor fully elsewhere, existing on two planes. Again we see the duality of the world at play.

Also, I'm wondering if there's any parallel between the three heads of the dragon and the six (now 4) heads of the direwolf, and whether the surviving direwolves have any major significance or symbolism compared to the deceased ones. We have Ghost, as mentioned above, and Shaggydog and Nymeria. All three are very wild animals. Summer is a bit of an exception. He seems a little more "civilized," if I may use that term, than the other three. Maybe that's simply due to his connection with Bran, but I think there might be something more to it.

[Black Crow]

Rolling Stone's new issue has Kit Harington on the cover with the tagline 'The Man Who Would Be King.' The inside article doesn't mention anything about kings, just that Jon Snow is ambitious :cool4:

Also, the issue contains a nice interview with GRRM.

Its an interesting article, there's some disappointment with it on the main board, presumably because its spoiler free, but its pretty insightful and in regard to confident expectations that Jon is really Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros, I found this bit interesting. But I would recommend using the link on the sidebar to the left and reading it for yourselves.

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it's not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question: What was Aragorn's tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren't gone – they're in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

In real life, real-life kings had real-life problems to deal with. Just being a good guy was not the answer. You had to make hard, hard decisions. Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass; it was the law of unintended consequences. I've tried to get at some of these in my books. My people who are trying to rule don't have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn't make you a wise king.

[Black Crow]

Also, I'm wondering if there's any parallel between the three heads of the dragon and the six (now 4) heads of the direwolf, and whether the surviving direwolves have any major significance or symbolism compared to the deceased ones. We have Ghost, as mentioned above, and Shaggydog and Nymeria. All three are very wild animals. Summer is a bit of an exception. He seems a little more "civilized," if I may use that term, than the other three. Maybe that's simply due to his connection with Bran, but I think there might be something more to it.

Its an interesting question of course and comes back to the question of who is really the dominant partner in the pairings. The interesting thing about Summer is that Bran doesn't name him. Ghost refers to him as the one who smells of Summer, indicating that Bran recognised him as Summer rather than thinking up the name himself and that in turn suggests a certain [opposed?] duality between Ghost and Summer, perhaps reflecting a similar duality between Jon and Bran with one becoming King of Winter and the other King of Summer.

[avernite]

And it's no surprise that he's named Ghost, since ghosts are neither dead nor alive, neither fully here nor fully elsewhere, existing on two planes. Again we see the duality of the world at play.

Also, I'm wondering if there's any parallel between the three heads of the dragon and the six (now 4) heads of the direwolf, and whether the surviving direwolves have any major significance or symbolism compared to the deceased ones. We have Ghost, as mentioned above, and Shaggydog and Nymeria. All three are very wild animals. Summer is a bit of an exception. He seems a little more "civilized," if I may use that term, than the other three. Maybe that's simply due to his connection with Bran, but I think there might be something more to it.

Obvious other 6's (or 7's, mama wolf included) would be:

the elements of the Reed oath. I could pair Ice and Ghost, iron and Lady the andal-wolf, Grey Wind the wolf of the bronze-crowned king, Fire and Summer - and presumably Nymeria in the riverlands is water and Shaggydog on Skagos AKA Stone is Earth.

The Seven. Dead momma is either the Mother or maybe the Stranger. Ghost makes an excellent Stranger. Grey Wind/Robb is the Father, wild Shaggy/Rickon the Warrior, making Summer/Bran the Seer/Smith. Lady is the Maiden, the innocent dead. Which would make Nymeria the Crone - or maybe we have to rotate a bit, as a Seer would also make an excellent (male) Crone and Nymeria would make a fine warrior... in which case Rickon might be destined to rebuild the North as the 'Smith'.

The Seven Kingdoms, but finding parallels is tough, so I'll skip that.

Assuming the first set: the clear implication is that man is coming to ruin - those wolves died. Natural elements live free, away from civilization. And the Elemental/Magical wolves are completely caught in the Song up North, outside the reach of games of Thrones (except when they come knocking). This argues the role of the Starks is played out, they will not rise again as a force to contest the Iron Throne or independence... but their role will be critical in solving the issues with the Others, and who knows, maybe in rebuilding the land after the wars are over.

For the Seven, I have no clue, but maybe someone else has something :)

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

I don't see why you object this. First, it's in the text. Secondly, we have no evidence Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen or their immediate ancestors having any warging abilities. They may have had potential, but the circumstances were such that they never fulfil that potential. Also, around the time Dany hatched her dragons, there is a surge of magic everywhere. Hence, the conditions for the Stark children bonding with their pets further are there. And all you need is a trigger. Trauma is that trigger. In his coma, Bran is first having green dreams, then he wargs his direwolf. You cannot say green dreams, warging, skinchanging and greenseering are not connected. They are steps in supernatural abilities in the north. Jojen only has green dreams, but cannot warg. Jon can warg, but not skinchange (yet). Maybe because he is a Stark from his mother's line if we accept L+R=J and that's somehow weaker? Arya skinchanges into a cat. Sansa lost her direwolf and could not take the first step - warging although she experienced plenty of trauma. Also, so far she doesn't even have green dreams. I read it that she is lost to the Stark pack as much as her Lady, but I could be proven wrong. Robb did not show any magical abilities, because he was in charge all the time. He was the one afflicting traumas, not the one going through them helplessly. So, there would be no subconscious wish to escape into his direwolf except maybe at the very end - the RW, but since they killed his direwolf as well, we will never know. I think that sawing his direwolf's head onto his body is highly symbolic of the powers he had and never used both in warging and life sense. Also, keep in mind that warging is not something people in the north or even beyond the wall look favourably upon. So, Starks may have been consciously suppressing their abilities for generations in order not to be seen as evil leaders of the north. Thay obviously managed to suppress these abilities to an extent, but there was a potential there.

I agree with you that we see no evidence Ned and company did not have warging abilities. My original post however quoted that the Kings in the North (long dead and now in the crypts with their stone direwolves) were likely to have been wargs. I doubt that their wolves likeness would be added to the crypts if they were just house pets, so a deeper connection must have occurred. This warg connection was lost when the direwolves were no longer spotted south of the Wall but still passed through the bloodline to our current Stark generation.

I personally believe that the magic returning back into the world due to the dragons isnt overly important to the warg connection since we have many other wargs/skinchangers and greenseers before this round of dragons. I think it was planned by whomever sent the momma direwolf to the Starks that the wolves bond with their warg partner around the time that Dany hatched her dragons.

You may have contradicted your self a little bit in your post because you say that warging/skinchanging and greensight are connected and then say that Jojen can only do one, while Jon is only capable of the other. This to me is enough to say that greensight and skinchanging are not ALWAYS connected. While I agree some people may be able to do both (bran), it is not a given for each personn meaning they are not perfectly connected. They exist without the other. If they are not connected then it isnt important to Sansa's warging ability that she is not having green dreams. As far as we know the only Starks that have had green dreams are Bran and Rickon but there are other Wargs.

"The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it" - Prologue ADwD

which explains why Jon is not skinchanging. Its not that he cant, but hes still fighting being a warg so would logically not force himself on other animals.

As someone else mentioned Robb is not a POV so we can not conclude that he has no magical abilities. A fleeting dream that he can not interpret does not seem important enough to bring up while hes busy fighting a war.

Im not certain that warging was frowned upon but its like the other forms of magic in that people don't quite understand it. People are often times scared of what they do not understand. North of the Wall it is seen as an advantage especially when it involved birds providing a set of eyes for the wildlings.

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

I think we're slightly out of phase on this.

The argument is that the warging was triggered by the direwolves

The greenseeing/third eye business is what's triggered by the sensory deprivation.

Its a step process. Once the warging bond is in place its then possible for the Three-eyed Crow to come through the opened door and start Bran on the road to becoming a greenseer, and then later for Bran to come through the same door to start Jon's awakening.

I agree with this but have a question to pose. Is the sensory deprivation a means to speed up the opening of the third eye or a vital component? I mean Rickon hasnt had sensory deprivation as far we know but still managed some green dreams. Im wondering if perhaps the coma allows Bloodraven to more aggressively show Bran how to open his third eye since Bran is continuously asleep. Is Jon is not picking up the lesson as quickly as Bran did since his wolf dreams are over a limited time each night.

Was Jojen introduced to his greensight through a sensory deprivation that we havent heard about yet or is he exempt as a crannogman?

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

There are a couple of aspects to this debate about the warg/skinchanging and trauma or sensory deprivation trigger that I think are being overlooked.

First is the fact that the direwolves are indeed pups. This I think is very important. Would a grown direwolf be willing to bond with a person? What would the motivation be for a predator that can just about out match all others want with a human? Particularly since it's humans that have hunted them to near extinction. I'm more inclined to see that bond between the kids and the pups as mutually beneficial in this case. The pups would have died if they hadn't been found. The Stark children learn and develop magically due to the bond they form with the direwolves. We may find that this link is what ultimately saves House Stark. And even if it doesn't their bonds have certainly brought them back to the roots of their lineage since their sigil is a direwolf and it's a probably a large part of why they became the Kings of Winter/ in the North.

The second bit that I think is rather important as well is the trauma that is suffered by the direwolves. They have lost their mother and are sucking at drying milk. We've talked a lot about how the Stark kids suffered but not at all about what the wolves have. Ghost recounts that they were days without the protection and warmth of mummy, wandering around blind and crying. That's pretty traumatic for puppies. Anyone that's taken home a newly weaned pup knows about separation anxiety in the puppy and how they need a period of adjustment. These guys were not even weaned.

That said I think the trauma part is only important in it's effect. In other words, had not the circumstances been as they are, the bonding would not take place. If mother wolf had killed the stag and lived would the pups have even encountered a human? If Rickon wasn't left all alone would he have taken solace in his wolf? Had Arya felt at all in control of her life would she have escaped into her wolf at night to feel strong? Would Bran have slipped into Summer if he could still clime? I disagree Modesty that Robb hasn't had trauma, he has. It's pretty traumatic to have an entire homestead, the surrounding lands, his younger brothers and the rule of the entire North thrust onto 15 year old shoulders. And that was with both his parents alive. What came after I wouldn't wish on any teenager. Robb takes strength from his bond with Greywind in the same way Jon took strength from Ghost. Both boys were in situations that were beyond them.

Sansa on the other hand is an interesting puzzle. She has probably suffered the worst of psychological traumas than any of them. However she still dreams of Lady and even in the dream state memories she takes strength from Lady. When she is in the Fingers we see her taking comfort from the old bitch that crawls into her bed. She wishes it was Lady, but the fact that she yearns for that connection is indicative that there was one even before she suffered any losses. So again I think the trauma is secondary in the children. It's a good catalyst. The sensory deprivation is as well. Neither I think though is essential. The bond would grow regardless. The key I think is in the fact that the children are children and the pups are pups and as such they both grow and learn together.

I agree that the key is a mutual trust or respect between the children and the wolves.

I hadn't even considered the age of the pups so thank you for bringing that up. The age of the pups definetly does indicate that a bond will evolve between them and their caretakers as compared to a full grown wild animal. The pups life is literally in the Starks hands and that is a very powerful thing.

I find it difficult to believe that every single person who initiates warging or skinchanging with an animal has to have experienced a personal trauma. Does no one live happy lives in Westeros?!?

[Black Crow]

I agree with this but have a question to pose. Is the sensory deprivation a means to speed up the opening of the third eye or a vital component? I mean Rickon hasnt had sensory deprivation as far we know but still managed some green dreams. Im wondering if perhaps the coma allows Bloodraven to more aggressively show Bran how to open his third eye since Bran is continuously asleep. Is Jon is not picking up the lesson as quickly as Bran did since his wolf dreams are over a limited time each night.

Was Jojen introduced to his greensight through a sensory deprivation that we havent heard about yet or is he exempt as a crannogman?

I have a recollection Jojen suffered a serious illness when young.

As to your question, as somebody pointed out above its quite common to find that loss of one sense produces a compensatory acuteness in others

[ThunderG]

Its an interesting article, there's some disappointment with it on the main board, presumably because its spoiler free, but its pretty insightful and in regard to confident expectations that Jon is really Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros, I found this bit interesting. But I would recommend using the link on the sidebar to the left and reading it for yourselves.

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it's not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question: What was Aragorn's tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren't gone they're in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

In real life, real-life kings had real-life problems to deal with. Just being a good guy was not the answer. You had to make hard, hard decisions. Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass; it was the law of unintended consequences. I've tried to get at some of these in my books. My people who are trying to rule don't have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn't make you a wise king.

GRRM should finish ASoIaF before comparing to LotR and complaning about tax policy and baby orcs. Including disturbing sex and torture doesn't create a superior work.

[King of Winters]

I have a recollection Jojen suffered a serious illness when young.

Yes, he tried to breath mud like his sister and father, but couldn't for some strange reason, and caught a fever. He survived and was visited by the 3EC, and his eyes turned green, and he gained the greensight.

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

Yes, he tried to breath mud like his sister and father, but couldn't for some strange reason, and caught a fever. He survived and was visited by the 3EC, and his eyes turned green, and he gained the greensight.

Ahh yes thank you (and you Black Crow). I had forgotten about that.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree with you that we see no evidence Ned and company did not have warging abilities. My original post however quoted that the Kings in the North (long dead and now in the crypts with their stone direwolves) were likely to have been wargs. I doubt that their wolves likeness would be added to the crypts if they were just house pets, so a deeper connection must have occurred. This warg connection was lost when the direwolves were no longer spotted south of the Wall but still passed through the bloodline to our current Stark generation.

I personally believe that the magic returning back into the world due to the dragons isnt overly important to the warg connection since we have many other wargs/skinchangers and greenseers before this round of dragons. I think it was planned by whomever sent the momma direwolf to the Starks that the wolves bond with their warg partner around the time that Dany hatched her dragons.

You may have contradicted your self a little bit in your post because you say that warging/skinchanging and greensight are connected and then say that Jojen can only do one, while Jon is only capable of the other. This to me is enough to say that greensight and skinchanging are not ALWAYS connected. While I agree some people may be able to do both (bran), it is not a given for each personn meaning they are not perfectly connected. They exist without the other. If they are not connected then it isnt important to Sansa's warging ability that she is not having green dreams. As far as we know the only Starks that have had green dreams are Bran and Rickon but there are other Wargs.

which explains why Jon is not skinchanging. Its not that he cant, but hes still fighting being a warg so would logically not force himself on other animals.

As someone else mentioned Robb is not a POV so we can not conclude that he has no magical abilities. A fleeting dream that he can not interpret does not seem important enough to bring up while hes busy fighting a war.

Im not certain that warging was frowned upon but its like the other forms of magic in that people don't quite understand it. People are often times scared of what they do not understand. North of the Wall it is seen as an advantage especially when it involved birds providing a set of eyes for the wildlings.

I didn't see this post by Modesty Lannister and so i'm going off your reply and will say that you guys are again missing the point so i will try to clear up what has been bcked up by the evidence of the text:

The first bolded part has several things working against it in a way,not that Ned and Co does not have the gene but it has to do with wheter or not it was expressed or not and the expression of that comes with wheter or not there is Direwolves present. In the case of Ned and his generation no,there were no Direwolves South and furthermore no one took the time to ensure that they had them. Another key issue that i said up thread that is getting missed. The Direwolves are the Stark kids "doubles" how do you explain that there were the exact amount of pups in the correct sex and w White one that cralwed off for the bastard called Snow. Which only Jon could hear?

Secondly,magic "never" left the world there is proof that goes against that,BR ,the trees,the crows,the fact that there are skinchangers North of the Wall prooves that it was still there.The Red priests were still doing their stuff out East,Faceless men were stiil able to use blood magic to swap faces. It never stopped . The only reason i think people believe magic is back is because the Stark kids are showing special abilities.

No!! Someone got Direwolves over the Wall to get into the hands of their proxies.If that incident did not happen then the old powers and races would not have access to the Stark kids.They planted their own into the Stark family....The Direwolves.

I agree with this but have a question to pose. Is the sensory deprivation a means to speed up the opening of the third eye or a vital component? I mean Rickon hasnt had sensory deprivation as far we know but still managed some green dreams. Im wondering if perhaps the coma allows Bloodraven to more aggressively show Bran how to open his third eye since Bran is continuously asleep. Is Jon is not picking up the lesson as quickly as Bran did since his wolf dreams are over a limited time each night.

Was Jojen introduced to his greensight through a sensory deprivation that we havent heard about yet or is he exempt as a crannogman?

Rickon has had emotional trauma....everyone left him and when Bran was injured Cat was to busy at Bran's bedside to give him attention.Ned was gone with the girls,Jon was headed North and Robb was busy being the Stark in Winter fell. Which left Rickon completely open for Shaggy.

I agree that the key is a mutual trust or respect between the children and the wolves.

I hadn't even considered the age of the pups so thank you for bringing that up. The age of the pups definetly does indicate that a bond will evolve between them and their caretakers as compared to a full grown wild animal. The pups life is literally in the Starks hands and that is a very powerful thing.

I find it difficult to believe that every single person who initiates warging or skinchanging with an animal has to have experienced a personal trauma. Does no one live happy lives in Westeros?!?

Again we are missing a defining factor the wolves mirror the kids.

ETA: We have to look at the culture of the environment taking place,things are a bit rough and certain norms that would seem harsh for us is everyday and a matter of survival for them. Plus there has to be a defining moment where skinchangers realized they could do it,an X factor that serves as a catalyse.The mind suffering an emotional lash seems the plausible mode.

We've heard no mention of dreams and waking sensations form the lessons of Haggon or even V6,which further adds to the possiblity of the person being active part unlike the stark kids.

[Jojen]

Yes, he tried to breath mud like his sister and father, but couldn't for some strange reason, and caught a fever. He survived and was visited by the 3EC, and his eyes turned green, and he gained the greensight.

This makes me wonder whether Bran would have bonded with Summer and developed his nascent skin-changing abilities as readily were it not for his injury. I won't go so far as to say that Jaime did him a favor, but after all, that push is what put him on the path that led him to BR. Without it, he might have resisted like Jon, although Jon's stabbing will likely be what causes him to finally embrace his inner warg.

Being blind allowed Arya to explore her skin-changing ability, and if she ever returns to Westeros, she may need Nymeria in order to finish off the names on her list.

Are there any theories about who sent the direwolves to Jon and the Stark children? Do we think it was BR, or Mother Mole, or someone/something else entirely?

[Black Crow]

Bloodraven is the obvious immediate candidate, but of course we don't know just how far he is in control. In simple terms is he the master; the mad genius manipulaying everything in sight, or is he just the tool of the Old Gods?

[Jojen]

Hmm. So BR=LF?

[Modesty Lannister]

1. Seriously what's with the chip on the shoulder?

2. The point is ML is that Sansa "Blacked out" is that acceptable? Secondly,the "Snowflake Communion" as coined by BC is a symbolism used by GRRM with regards to certain characters(in relation to ice) ,thus far Sansa and Jon have had such events happen to them.Sansa in the Vale,Jon has had a few including the one he accepted with the "Dance with me" the other case is when Othor shoved his hand down Jon's throat. This are all symbolisms associated with 'initiations" in myth so when you start seeing the author doing it more than once you take notice.

Robb had one with the Snowflake in the hair when they left WF ,Jon noticed it and Sam also had one which Jon also notes.

1. I am sure Black Crow is a big boy and doesn't need his personal lawyer, so why do you interfere???

2. I think turning one snowflake symbolism into a ritual of initiation is a bit too much.

[King of Winters]

This makes me wonder whether Bran would have bonded with Summer and developed his nascent skin-changing abilities as readily were it not for his injury. I won't go so far as to say that Jaime did him a favor, but after all, that push is what put him on the path that led him to BR. Without it, he might have resisted like Jon, although Jon's stabbing will likely be what causes him to finally embrace his inner warg.

Being blind allowed Arya to explore her skin-changing ability, and if she ever returns to Westeros, she may need Nymeria in order to finish off the names on her list.

Are there any theories about who sent the direwolves to Jon and the Stark children? Do we think it was BR, or Mother Mole, or someone/something else entirely?

Yes, it does seem like you need to go through a traumatic experience in order for the warg and skinchanging ability to awaken in the person. As you've said Bran, Jon and Arya have all gone through some type of experience that's helped, or will help, them with their ability. Robb could have also gone through it, he said Grey Wind before he was stabbed, as Jon does with Ghost, so there's a theory that when Grey Wind broke free and killed some Frey men, that was Robb inside Grey Wind.

There's also a theory that when Jon skinchanges into Ghost, he'll no longer be silent and will be able to growl and howl because of the connection being fully made with him and Jon.