Heresy 109

[Jojen]

I know what Black Crow is objecting to, and I'll let you mull this one over. If Bronze = First Men, and Iron = Andals, then the Andals were part of the Pact which is one of my pet theories. The maesters have tried to manipulate the historical record in such a way as to deny culpability and refute inclusion into the Pact that was signed on the Isle of Faces. The Andals are basically saying, "we weren't there", but I believe that is the root behind the true meaning of, "The North Remembers". In other words, (Other, lol) the North remembers that the Andals were a part of the Pact despite their protestations.

There might be a Biblical angle to this as well, a sort of Man's dominion over nature, Man is the center of the universe, sort of thing going on. Man might be an animal, but he aspires to reason. They might consider the CotF as animals (or grumpkins and snarks) and no better than dragons. A man can't reason with an animal.

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

snipped..

I have doubts about the necessity for trauma as a catalyst, since the Stark kids exhibited budding bonds with their wolves whilst still "unsullied". Jon heard Ghost's puppy thoughts at the time of discovery. Sansa's Lady acted the little lady, just like her owner. Nymeria was smart, but willful like Arya. Shaggy Dog was wild and unruly like Rickon, running all over the place. And Summer gave Bran his strength while he was still in a coma. Insisting upon trauma as catalyst would then have to apply to every Stark in history in the crypts with their direwolves. I just don't think you can definitively say it's a necessity.

We did speculate that the warging ability is passed on through maternal genetics, and I think the lack of warging prior to the Stark kids could be evidence that the previous Stark generations married outside that maternal line for awhile. Many suspect that Ned's mother was a Flint. It would be nice to see if we could find any Flint wargs. I think I read somewhere that the Tully's had maternal lineage with ties to warging also....probably Bras Vras stuff?

I'm still doubtful, as I've already explained above. I think the warg gift was already there, but the personal experiences each Stark kid has stimulates them to develop their skills.

Happy belated birthday, Black Crow!

I am glad to see that I'm not the only one who is skeptical of the necessity of trauma (Incase you haven't had a chance to sift though all of the posts this is the stance I have taken as well).

[wolfmaid7]

Long day at work and every body is crabby, I see. Have a beer and chill-ax!

I would venture to say that White Walkers are Ice. The fire Targaryens brought both First Men and Andals to heel and unified Westeros into the seven kingdoms. Relative peace reigned, and I mean "relative". It now appears that Ice will have it's way very soon.

I know what Black Crow is objecting to, and I'll let you mull this one over. If Bronze = First Men, and Iron = Andals, then the Andals were part of the Pact which is one of my pet theories. The maesters have tried to manipulate the historical record in such a way as to deny culpability and refute inclusion into the Pact that was signed on the Isle of Faces. The Andals are basically saying, "we weren't there", but I believe that is the root behind the true meaning of, "The North Remembers". In other words, (Other, lol) the North remembers that the Andals were a part of the Pact despite their protestations.

I have doubts about the necessity for trauma as a catalyst, since the Stark kids exhibited budding bonds with their wolves whilst still "unsullied". Jon heard Ghost's puppy thoughts at the time of discovery. Sansa's Lady acted the little lady, just like her owner. Nymeria was smart, but willful like Arya. Shaggy Dog was wild and unruly like Rickon, running all over the place. And Summer gave Bran his strength while he was still in a coma. Insisting upon trauma as catalyst would then have to apply to every Stark in history in the crypts with their direwolves. I just don't think you can definitively say it's a necessity.

We did speculate that the warging ability is passed on through maternal genetics, and I think the lack of warging prior to the Stark kids could be evidence that the previous Stark generations married outside that maternal line for awhile. Many suspect that Ned's mother was a Flint. It would be nice to see if we could find any Flint wargs. I think I read somewhere that the Tully's had maternal lineage with ties to warging also....probably Bras Vras stuff?

I'm still doubtful, as I've already explained above. I think the warg gift was already there, but the personal experiences each Stark kid has stimulates them to develop their skills.

Happy belated birthday, Black Crow!

This idea has been part of the confusion occuring over the past few pages Feather,it has nothing to do with the gift of Warging or skinchanging, that as you rightly stated has always been there.Psychic/emotional trauma does not change or have anything to do with DNA.What it did was make the individual's mind vulnerable enough where it would flee into something safe(v6) or be accessed.For the Starks ,when did the dreams start? So to restate the ability to be a Warg or skinchanger is there and i have a feeling just a feeling that puberty would have done the same thing to.

Shaggy's wildness might be related to Rickon's green dreams and warging potential. Rickon has been through a lot for a child. Now that he's basically an orphan, how will he grow up without a mother and a father (who provide balance in the family unit) to guide him? His emotional trauma could help open his eye if BR reaches out to him on Skagos, unless there's someone already there who can be his guide.

Agreeed

[addicted to snow]

Not to derail, I'm just getting caught up and wanted to say that this is an important contrast between V6 and Bran. We get glimpses of the bond with V6, but the way he engages it is different from Bran. I think you are right, it is down to the issue of control -- V6 views it as holding them in his 'thrall' (don't have the exact quote). Bran views Summer more as an extension of self, and the danger comes in when he takes up residence in Hodor's mind, where we get a real sense that he wasn't invited in. It's a colossal invasion of the self, and a very different relationship than the mutual bond Bran and Summer share.

I think your understanding of warging is pretty nuanced. We can only speculate that what V6 practices is different from what the old Kings of Winter practiced, because maybe they weren't so nice, either. The other component might be that when V6 got started, magic wasn't as strong (if we believe Mel), so the control thing was the best V6 could muster, he never got beyond it. On the other hand, V6 might never have been interested in sharing, as Bran seems to. For him, it was always about the power he got from exerting control over his animals.

Bran may be more representative of 'the good king' or 'good use of magic' trope in the story. He's going to have to figure out the Hodor thing, not every character is perfect.

Excellent Post… Being a bad-guy does not mean that Varamyr was not a Warg. Varamyr & Bran share the exact same magical ability.

--

On a different note: How did Varamyr achieve these abilities without either sensory deprivation or a direwolf? One can only conclude that neither component is required to become a warg. A dog or common wolf will serve just fine.

[Urrax2]

Oh, yeah.

Any time I read a GRRM interview and Tolkien comes up, I can be sure that GRRM will start talking about Aragorn's unstated tax policy.

I think Tolkien had the right idea there. I don't remember reading LotR and thinking it was good... but clearly needed more tax policy.

(I suspect Tolkien would also have found better things for Dany to do since 2000, spared us the Ramsay/Theon/Jeyne subplot, etc.)

:agree:

[Harlan]

Like I just said above, there is nothing of a symbiotic relationship between V6 and the dogs. He used them as means to an end. First as solace from a cold and unloving mother and then from the frightful temper of his abusive father. Plus I would say the proof is in V6 himself as he is a psychopath with delusions of grandeur and they don't develop in health, happy homes do they?

As Black Crow said the circumstances and blood have to be right in order for this to happen. As I said before it doesn't necessarily need to be trauma, since a person deprived of a sense will reach out with the others. If that person has the ability and the opportunity to fill that void with an animal they will. I would add to this that we all have needs of one form or another that don't get filled by our lives so even if there is one happy person in all of Westeros (is there such a thing?) then even s/he is probably not entirely satisfied so if that person could bond with an animal they too probably would. It's part of the human condition I think.

Actually, many of the traits defining "psycopathy" have been found to be heritable, meaning that it doesn't really matter how happy your home was. Traits which have been found to be heritable include "fearless dominance", "Impulsive Antisociality"₁, and "callous-unemotional traits"₂. These very traits seem to e to be the psycopathic traits which V6 exhibits. That he was born with these traits also explains why his parents didn't seem to like or care for him as much as V6's siblings. I grant that work in this area is still far from conclusive though and the genetic/environmental impact on the pysocopathic traits is still uncertain.

1. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=78D8F9B2C39C342134E95EA3325ACD93.journals?fromPage=online&aid=298966

2. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2004.00393.x/abstract;jsessionid=FD49819CB5801F6991C46A879F6F6F40.f02t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

On the topic of where the DW mother came from, I feel that the best explanation is no explanation. That scene is the scene that started this whole story. It was the first scene from GoT that GRRM thought up, prior to even knowing what the story would be about. It just popped into his head one day. It seems reasonable to me that that the direwolf pups could simply be a cornerstone or basic assumption that the story makes which has no reasonable internal explanation.

[Phillip Frye]

Both Quotes that you provided took place AFTER he had become a Warg, so they cannot be considered a 'traumatic event' that triggered him to becoming a warg...

By your definition of trauma, everyone in Westeros should be a Warg.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it was ice cream sundaes every morning for Bump and Lump. It sounded like a great household.

My impression from reading the prologue was that Varamyr Sixskins fled into the dogs as a child to escape his father who was abusive. While he was in the dogs, he could avoid the violent guy wandering around the mud hut wearing the wildling equivalent of a sleeveless undershirt.

[Phillip Frye]

However, I agree with Addicted to Snow and Armstark that Varamyr Sixskins was a warg. He bonded with his main wolf after his first death. That's enough for me.

However, in my mind, Varamyr Sixskins was a warg, five Stark siblings were/are Wargs, and SuperBran is a WARG. I think that they are all wargs, but some are more powerful, with Varamyr bringing up the rear. The lack of a need to exert any mental power to enter their direwolves is probably what makes all of the Starks more powerful than Varamyr. I noticed that Bran had more trouble getting into the crows with whom he lacks that special connection. It must have been even harder for Varamyr Sixskins in that he was forcing himself into every animal.

[Phillip Frye]

As to the direwolves, as we've been discussing its not ordinary skinchanging, but a mutual bonding , quite unlike what Varamyr was doing - and what Bran does with Hodor. There is a bit of a questionmark over the crows though. Something else we've discussed in the past is their ubiquity in the story and a strong suspicion that they too are one of the Old Races and on a par with the direwolves

I have to disagree with the part that I placed in bold above. What Bran does to Hodor is exactly what Varamyr did to his animals. It's not nice. I understand that many people believe that Bran/Hodor will be become a symbiotic superbeing, crushing all foes with a rusted iron blade. However, I think that Bran's actions towards Hodor is one of the many evil things that he has done in the books, and something for which he may pay later. Bran is a grey character, possibly headed down a dark path the longer that he stays with the cute and cuddly CoTF.

However, I think that he is a much less dark character than Arya (You go, girl! Slay those insurers!)

[Phillip Frye]

Varamyr & Bran share the exact same magical ability.

I don't think so. I can't speak for Wolfmaid, but I have to admit that what I admire about you is your ability to double down in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

It appears that Bran is being groomed to be even more powerful than Bloodraven. He can see through trees. It is possible that he will be able to control entire flocks of crows and look at multiple places at the same time. I don't know exactly how powerful Bran will become, but I know that his power will dwarf that of Varamyr Sixskins.

Varamyr controlled six animals--a record for a wildling skinchanger, but his control was always shaky and tenuous. He could barely keep the shadowcat and snow bear from breaking control and tearing him apart. When he lost control during the battle, every animal except the wolves completely deserted him. If he hadn't been in the middle of a group of men, two of the animals would have probably made a meal of him. He is a simple warg who pushed his powers as far as he could, but Bran is much more.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I don't think so. I can't speak for Wolfmaid, but I have to admit that what I admire about you is your ability to double down in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

It appears that Bran is being groomed to be even more powerful than Bloodraven. He can see through trees. It is possible that he will be able to control entire flocks of crows and look at multiple places at the same time. I don't know exactly how powerful Bran will become, but I know that his power will dwarf that of Varamyr Sixskins.

Varamyr controlled six animals--a record for a wildling skinchanger, but his control was always shaky and tenuous. He could barely keep the shadowcat and snow bear from breaking control and tearing him apart. When he lost control during the battle, every animal except the wolves completely deserted him. If he hadn't been in the middle of a group of men, two of the animals would have probably made a meal of him. He is a simple warg who pushed his powers as far as he could, but Bran is much more.

Agreed. What Bran does with Hodor is the same thing the Varamyr does. But what Bran has with Summer is something that Varamyr never had--a connection back to him. Varamyr was controlling his animals--he invaded their space; this is precisely what Bran does with Hodor. With Summer, however, Bran is invited in; Summer wants Bran to be with him, and it appears that this is the type of bond that the weirnet has with the greenseers as well (ie just as Jojen fears that Bran-Summer are becoming one, Bloodraven-Weirwood have indeed become one). We also see this invitation type of bond with Arya and the Cat--remember, it wasn't just any cat she brought back into the House with her, it was her favorite one, who also happened to have grown quite attached to Arya, and it is likely this pre-existing connection between Arya and the cat that allowed her to slip into the cat so easily, and it is this same pre-existing connection that makes Bran-Summer so easy to do, that made Robb have his wolf-dream where, through Grey Winds eyes, we found the hidden path around the Golden Tooth, and it is through this pre-existing connection that Jon half-wargs into Ghost by simply petting him.

As to Varamyr, some animals are just easier to control than others, so when you take a wolf, it is more likely to become permanently bound to you as opposed to, say, a shadowcat or a bear. "When you take a wolf, you wed for life". However, with Varamyr, it is never described in an "invitation" way such as it sometimes is with Bran (now, this could simply be a symptom of Varamyr's arrogance).

[Black Crow]

I have to disagree with the part that I placed in bold above. What Bran does to Hodor is exactly what Varamyr did to his animals. It's not nice. I understand that many people believe that Bran/Hodor will be become a symbiotic superbeing, crushing all foes with a rusted iron blade. However, I think that Bran's actions towards Hodor is one of the many evil things that he has done in the books, and something for which he may pay later. Bran is a grey character, possibly headed down a dark path the longer that he stays with the cute and cuddly CoTF.

However, I think that he is a much less dark character than Arya (You go, girl! Slay those insurers!)

You misunderstand me :cool4: I was pointing out that Bran's usurpation of Hodor was akin to what Varamyr did and quite unlike his relationship with Summer. We are in fact agreed.

[Black Crow]

On the topic of where the DW mother came from, I feel that the best explanation is no explanation. That scene is the scene that started this whole story. It was the first scene from GoT that GRRM thought up, prior to even knowing what the story would be about. It just popped into his head one day. It seems reasonable to me that that the direwolf pups could simply be a cornerstone or basic assumption that the story makes which has no reasonable internal explanation.

:agree:

As I said earlier we're going to get to the end of this with a lot of unanswered questions simply because the answers don't matter.

Given their importance its possible that at some point we'll get an explanation of who sent the direwolves, how they got through the Wall and if there was indeed a connection to Gared - and given GRRM's reference in the interview to his initial visualisation encompassing both the execution and the finding of the direwolves I'm still inclined to look for a link*

On the other hand there may never be an explanation simply because all that matters is that the direwolves were found and bonded.

Similarly, interesting though the discussion has been on the possible influence of trauma, I think it may be over-analysing things and that what happens happens.

* this was intriguing; I'm familiar with the story about it starting off with a mental picture of men in mediaeval clothes bending over the direwolf in the snow/forest, but I'd not heard of the link to the execution before.

[Black Crow]

There might be a Biblical angle to this as well, a sort of Man's dominion over nature, Man is the center of the universe, sort of thing going on. Man might be an animal, but he aspires to reason. They might consider the CotF as animals (or grumpkins and snarks) and no better than dragons. A man can't reason with an animal.

:agree:

Which is why in my interpretation of thebronze and iron in the oath I paraphrased Leaf's comment about the world that men had made

[Black Crow]

What it comes from is utilizing on outside source, Martin's "The Ice Dragon", where the character of Adarra has a snowflake commune, thus "letting winter inside her", after which she is able to ride the Ice Dragon; the thinking is that if Martin utilized this general idea before (that being one of a snow- communion and "letting winter in") that he is likely to do so again.

Ah, technically Adara was born with Winter inside her, but essentially that is indeed the argument that the snowflake communion represents the characters in question receiving Winter inside them, which may come in handy in the next book when we've been promised a trip into the Land of Always Winter

[Eira Seren]

I'd like you to apologise for what you said. I am being very respectful. You are attacking me with no reason what-so-ever and keep doing so. If you want to discuss or dispute anything related to GRRM's world of ASOIAF, please do, so, but you are way out of line here.

Hmm, perhaps you did not intend for your earlier post to sound the way it has been taken. I'll admit, I thought it sounded the way BC and Wolfmaid seem to have interpreted it, as well. Just letting you know.

[Eira Seren]

Happy Birthday Black Crow!

[Mace Cooterian]

Happy Birthday Black Crow!

BC......here is wishing that you'll receive your advanced copy of TWoW on your 61st name day..... :cheers:

[Stark@heart]

Sorry to derail but I think this is the best place for a recent observation of mine & possibly? a new area of discussion for a Heresy?

I just rewatched the 1st episode of this season and realized Arya kill scene of Polliver is a smash up of her kill scene of Raff in the Mercy sample chapter. Even the wording is there, so it got me to thinking....

Is it possible that other show/scene changes are also "smash ups" of things to come that "we" the readers don't have access to yet but the show writers do?

In particular I'm thinking of the shows Red Wedding and the stabbing death of the obviously preggers Queen of the North.

Readers know that never happened, so is it a foreshadowing / smash up of a death scene we'll one day get to read? Or did GRRM use the show to squash / make an end to a plot line that he decided he no longer had time for in the books?

Any thoughts?

[Melifeather]

In the book, Robb's wife, Jeyne Westerling, lives. There are some readers who think she is/was pregnant and her mother may have given her moon tea to abort the fetus. I don't know why the show changed the character, but I don't think there's a smashup there, although you could possibly view it as confirmation that there is no baby Stark.