Heresy 114

[Melifeather]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting may be the case; that the Starks have Winter or Ice inside them and the unique heating system is intended to keep it in check; I'm also thinking here you see of that injuction to Sam to take Gilly's son somewhere warm, to keep in check the Winter within him

Agreed.

[Black Crow]

It was me. And I agree with you that Dany clearly sees Drogo's 'spirit' ride away into the stars.

I did some research of stallions in asoiaf because of that one star which is named The Horned Lord north of the Wall and The Stallion south of it.

First it is interesting that the banner of house Bracken is a red stallion considering the blood feud of Blackwood vs Bracken which seems to me like a small 'image' or archetype of the overall struggle between ice and fire.

And of course there is the stallion in the tent of MMD and a stallion in the pyre.

Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion.

While I don't think any spirit of the stallions have gone into the dragons (only into Drogo), the stallions still seem to have been important for the ritual. Once again I am inclined to see everything as two sides of the same coin. The Stallion is the catalyst needed for the birth of dragons just like The Horned Lord is the catalyst needed for the birth of WhiteWalkers (as shown in the show). For Dragons you need the spirits of Targaryens and for WhiteWalkers the spirits of Starks. For Dragons you need fire and for WhiteWalkers the cold.

And just like the WhiteWalkers the dragons have their own 'faerie' realm (the Shadowlands?). The pyre takes place in the twilight between day and night and you have this line at the end:

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

It broke the barrier between faerie and real world to allow dragons into the world. We have three cracks and the last one is the loudest and sharpest. Just like with horn blowing the magic is the strongest at the third time. It might be that Drogon is the strongest dragon because he was the one born on the third crack were the barrier was the weakest.

I wonder if the Horn of Winter works in a similar way when you blow it three times, that the magic of the third blow somehow breaks barriers between realms.

edit: I should say it breaks a specific barrier: the Wall.

That's an interesting idea although I'd suspect there needs to be a bit more going on in the magic department to "support" the blowing of the horn if it is indeed an actual rather than a metaphorical one.

I would add a little twist to your suggestion about the third blast breaking the "barrier"; in that the Nights Watch have this business of blowing the horn three times for the Others.

Given that so much has been forgotten it would be ironic if it was blowing the horn three times was not only a warning of white walkers but also at one and the same time the key to let them through.

[Melifeather]

This Winterfell business with the hot water circulating through the walls and the crypts being warded suggests that steps were taken from nearly the beginning. I know a lot of people like to state that Winterfell is 10,000 years old, but it's the godswood that is 10,000 years old.

If Winterfell is even 8,000 years old, then it was built after the Long Night. I'm going to meditate on what the implications of that might mean before going further in my speculations.....

[Armstark]

I like this theory very much, except horns are also used to bind dragon to dragonlord, but Daenerys does seem to have discovered a way to manipulate magic.

Yes I have wondered about Euron's Dragonhorn too. We have yet to see its effect on dragons but here is how Victarion describes the effect on him:

“The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from

within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if

the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into

one.”

I wonder if the horn's effect is not so much on the dragons but on the one who claimed the horn with blood. It changes the claimant somehow which enables him to ride a dragon. The death of the horn blower pays for that transformation or rather the new life (or new blood) granted to the claimant from the faerie realm,. Dany does not need the horn because she already is 'the blood of the dragon'.

Victarion seems destined to continue his transformation which started with his brand new arm.

[Melifeather]

Yes I have wondered about Euron's Dragonhorn too. We have yet to see its effect on dragons but here is how Victarion describes the effect on him:

“The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from

within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if

the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into

one.”

I wonder if the horn's effect is not so much on the dragons but on the one who claimed the horn with blood. It changes the claimant somehow which enables him to ride a dragon. The death of the horn blower pays for that transformation or rather the new life (or new blood) granted to the claimant from the faerie realm,. Dany does not need the horn because she already is 'the blood of the dragon'.

Victarion seems destined to continue his transformation which started with his brand new arm.

That's an interesting observation, because Daenerys claims to be blood of the dragon. Maybe you have to have fire inside and the horn is a way of putting it there?

[Armstark]

That's an interesting idea although I'd suspect there needs to be a bit more going on in the magic department to "support" the blowing of the horn if it is indeed an actual rather than a metaphorical one.

I would add a little twist to your suggestion about the third blast breaking the "barrier"; in that the Nights Watch have this business of blowing the horn three times for the Others.

Given that so much has been forgotten it would be ironic if it was blowing the horn three times was not only a warning of white walkers but also at one and the same time the key to let them through.

Maybe in ancient times (before the Wall) it were the Kings of Winter who blew the Horn of Winter three times while yelling WINTER IS COMING

[Blade of Sunlight]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting may be the case; that the Starks have Winter or Ice inside them and the unique heating system is intended to keep it in check; I'm also thinking here you see of that injuction to Sam to take Gilly's son somewhere warm, to keep in check the Winter within him.

If it were to keep the Ice in check then what would happen to the younger Starks that became LC, and the Starks that in time became the Karstarks or the Greystarks, they did not live in Winterfell.

One possibility is that the warmth in Winterfell is a manifestation of the power that resides there, a power born from the meeting of Fire from the depth (volcanic) and Ice from the top (because of it's position North).

Another possibility is that just as the Wall keeps the Ice in check to the North, Winterfell, and the Gosdswood in it, serve to keep the volcanic Fire power in the depths, which is why there always must be a Stark at the Wall to keep fire in check.

I lean more towards the second.

[wolfmaid7]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting may be the case; that the Starks have Winter or Ice inside them and the unique heating system is intended to keep it in check; I'm also thinking here you see of that injuction to Sam to take Gilly's son somewhere warm, to keep in check the Winter within him.

And i will add

Gilly to Jon regarding monster:

"We saved him,Sam and me please,please m'lord we saved him from the cold (ADWD,Jon pg.100 electronic version).

I couldn't help myself...lol,but i agree with you based on the above quote and the context of Gilly's conversation ;dispte our different beliefs the whole babe collection. I think it was and is important to keep Monster's "cold" gene in check at lease for the time being.

I don't think Gilly was expecting to stay at the Wall at all she planned to make it South .In her conversation with Jon at the Keep she said.

"Will you take me? Just so far as the Wall-"(ACOK,Jon,pg.370).

[wolfmaid7]

That's an interesting observation, because Daenerys claims to be blood of the dragon. Maybe you have to have fire inside and the horn is a way of putting it there?

This to me was a mode used by the Dragonlords who were not Targs in TPATQ the Targ family did not use this and ofcourse Dany doesn't need it. Given the whole context of the quote the horn is intended to make the master a Dragonlord by essentially tricking the Dragon into believing the person survived the test of Fire and blood.Meaning.

Fire- Must survive the Dragonsong

I noted before the Dream in which Dany had where it was evident Drogon had summuned her and she accepted the ritual perfomed by the Dragon is very similar to what the horn does.So i think the horn mimics the ritual of the Dragon's summons:

Morroqo: ‘I am Dragonbinder,’ it says. Have you ever heard it sound?”

Victarion: “The sound it made … it burned,

somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot,then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one.”

Morroqo: “And the man who blew the horn, what of him?”

“He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too.

‘No mortal man shall sound me and live.’ ”

Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron’s gifts are always poisoned.

Vic: “The Crow’s Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is

death?”

Mor: “Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.”( ADWD,Victarion).

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt a dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her.There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma she raised her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And ofcourse you have to have blood,so Vics move would be to get someone with the right blood to blow the horn because only they could withstand the flames from the inside.So essentially the horn is a way to cheat to make the master of it appear to pass the test of fire and blood.

[Melifeather]

Maybe in ancient times (before the Wall) it were the Kings of Winter who blew the Horn of Winter three times while yelling WINTER IS COMING

Get the hell out of the way!!!!!!!!!!

:lmao:

If it were to keep the Ice in check then what would happen to the younger Starks that became LC, and the Starks that in time became the Karstarks or the Greystarks, they did not live in Winterfell.

One possibility is that the warmth in Winterfell is a manifestation of the power that resides there, a power born from the meeting of Fire from the depth (volcanic) and Ice from the top (because of it's position North).

Another possibility is that just as the Wall keeps the Ice in check to the North, Winterfell, and the Gosdswood in it, serve to keep the volcanic Fire power in the depths, which is why there always must be a Stark at the Wall to keep fire in check.

I lean more towards the second.

Maybe the Karstarks and Greystarks married women that were not of the maternal line needed to have ice within?

This to me was a mode used by the Dragonlords who were not Targs in TPATQ the Targ family did not use this and ofcourse Dany doesn't need it. Given the whole context of the quote the horn is intended to make the master a Dragonlord by essentially tricking the Dragon into believing the person survived the test of Fire and blood.Meaning.

Fire- Must survive the Dragonsong

I noted before the Dream in which Dany had where it was evident Drogon had summuned her and she accepted the ritual perfomed by the Dragon is very similar to what the horn does.So i think the horn mimics the ritual of the Dragon's summons:

And ofcourse you have to have blood,so Vics move would be to get someone with the right blood to blow the horn because only they could withstand the flames from the inside.So essentially the horn is a way to cheat to make the master of it appear to pass the test of fire and blood.

Victarion suffered a transformation though. He paid for this transformation through blood sacrifice, so I wouldn't call it a trick. It was similar, if you think about it, to Daenerys blood sacrifice of Mirri.

[WierWood Wolf]

I think you're misinterpretting that line...

I think it means that four remain (Ghost, Shaggydog, Nymeria, and Summer) and that he can no longer sense Summer because he's on the other side of the wall, where it's cold. Not that he means four that he can sense plus one that he can't.

Agree with this. What is strange is from Summer's viewpoint, Summer didn't really include Ghost in his count. Rather he counts Ghost separately as if he isn't part of the pack. Wish I could find that quote. Summer calls himself the wolf Prince.

[Amoracchius]

The Starks officially lost the title of "King of Winter" when the Night's King was overthrown. Their deal with the old races, mainly WW, is what gave them the title because they were in charge of the Wall and working to the with the old races to protect their lands.

While I tend to agree with most of this theory, I think it would be helpful if, when posting, you made it clear that this is a theory and not something stated explicitly in the text.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Maybe the Karstarks and Greystarks married women that were not of the maternal line needed to have ice within?

I don't believe that the maternal line can be of that much importance, it's more likely the Starks to marry outside the North (the Tullys for example) than the Karstarks or Greystarks, plus the naming system guarantees (for the most part) continuity only in the paternal line...

ETA: I do believe however that part of the skinchanging potential of the Starks came from their marriage to the Marsh King's daughter.

[wolfmaid7]

Get the hell out of the way!!!!!!!!!!

:lmao:

Maybe the Karstarks and Greystarks married women that were not of the maternal line needed to have ice within?

Victarion suffered a transformation though. He paid for this transformation through blood sacrifice, so I wouldn't call it a trick. It was similar, if you think about it, to Daenerys blood sacrifice of Mirri.

Lol... looking it from a different standpoint a trick "on the Dragon" because the horn ritual is turning an otherwise ordinary person into a Dragonlord hence the trick.I think there is a 90% chance Vic will bind a Dragon,else why introduce the horn.The issue though it is not natural the horn basically as i say will bamboozle the Dragon into bonding with someone who cheated the natural system.So i agree Vic did undergo a transformation,but it was sorcery in order to obtain a Dragon.

[Black Crow]

I do believe however that part of the skinchanging potential of the Starks came from their marriage to the Marsh King's daughter.

Dubious I fear, it looks far more likely that the Stark family secret goes much further back to the Long Night and how it was ended.

[Frey family reunion]

I don't believe that the maternal line can be of that much importance, it's more likely the Starks to marry outside the North (the Tullys for example) than the Karstarks or Greystarks, plus the naming system guarantees (for the most part) continuity only in the paternal line...

ETA: I do believe however that part of the skinchanging potential of the Starks came from their marriage to the Marsh King's daughter.

I think the maternal line is paramount for skinchangers. Remember that none of Varamyr's children had the gift, my guess is it has to either be passed down through the maternal lines or it requires a certain combination of maternal and paternal line to pass down the talent.

The Stark children are skinchangers either only because of Catelyn's line or because of a combination of Catelyn's line and the Stark line. Likewise if Jon is a skinchanger or warg (I'm not one hundred percent sure Jon isn't being warged by Ghost) then it is due to his maternal line (Lyanna her mother, and her Flint grandmother)

We know that Cat's Mother is a Whent my guess is that Cat's grandmother is a Lothston who I believe had the gift. Likewise my guess is Cat's paternal grandmother is a Blackwood (which is why her uncle's name is Brynden) and I think there is some evidence that the Blackwood's may have been nurturing a maternal line with the gift.

Further crackpot is that Maester Walys "Flowers/Hightower" and Eddard's father may have made their matrimonial arrangement with this in mind in order to return the "gift" to the Stark bloodlines.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I think the maternal line is paramount for skinchangers. Remember that none of Varamyr's children had the gift, my guess is it has to either be passed down through the maternal lines or it requires a certain combination of maternal and paternal line to pass down the talent.

The Stark children are skinchangers either only because of Catelyn's line or because of a combination of Catelyn's line and the Stark line. Likewise if Jon is a skinchanger or warg (I'm not one hundred percent sure Jon isn't being warged by Ghost) then it is due to his maternal line (Lyanna her mother, and her Flint grandmother)

We know that Cat's Mother is a Whent my guess is that Cat's grandmother is a Lothston who I believe had the gift. Likewise my guess is Cat's paternal grandmother is a Blackwood (which is why her uncle's name is Brynden) and I think there is some evidence that the Blackwood's may have been nurturing a maternal line with the gift.

Further crackpot is that Maester Walys "Flowers/Hightower" and Eddard's father may have made their matrimonial arrangement with this in mind in order to return the "gift" to the Stark bloodlines.

I agree, the skinchanging seems to matrilineal.

Cat gave to her kids and Lysa seems to have given it to her kid. And Sweetrobin's dad was of the purest Andal stock.

[Melifeather]

I don't believe that the maternal line can be of that much importance, it's more likely the Starks to marry outside the North (the Tullys for example) than the Karstarks or Greystarks, plus the naming system guarantees (for the most part) continuity only in the paternal line...

ETA: I do believe however that part of the skinchanging potential of the Starks came from their marriage to the Marsh King's daughter.

Maybe I'm making an assumption here, but I don't think all of the previous ancestors had the right maternal rootstock. I have read Bras Vras theory that the Tully's had the right maternal bloodline via Catelyn's mother for the Stark kids to have "Ice" in them, but it may not have been manifested in Ned, Brandon or Benjen, and their children's "Ice" genes would be contingent upon who they marry.

[Melifeather]

I think the maternal line is paramount for skinchangers. Remember that none of Varamyr's children had the gift, my guess is it has to either be passed down through the maternal lines or it requires a certain combination of maternal and paternal line to pass down the talent.

The Stark children are skinchangers either only because of Catelyn's line or because of a combination of Catelyn's line and the Stark line. Likewise if Jon is a skinchanger or warg (I'm not one hundred percent sure Jon isn't being warged by Ghost) then it is due to his maternal line (Lyanna her mother, and her Flint grandmother)

We know that Cat's Mother is a Whent my guess is that Cat's grandmother is a Lothston who I believe had the gift. Likewise my guess is Cat's paternal grandmother is a Blackwood (which is why her uncle's name is Brynden) and I think there is some evidence that the Blackwood's may have been nurturing a maternal line with the gift.

Further crackpot is that Maester Walys "Flowers/Hightower" and Eddard's father may have made their matrimonial arrangement with this in mind in order to return the "gift" to the Stark bloodlines.

Maybe (the bolded part) is the true definition of "southron ambitions"? If so, then Rickard didn't really have ambitions in the south. He just wanted the maternal bloodline. But would Maester Walys want to return the gift? Wasn't he from a southern house?

[Harlan]

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail

beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the

hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead

mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four

remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

What if the 4 he could sense, doesn't directly refer to wolves. I've suspected for a long time that skinchangers exchange parts of themselves with their familiars. The human would become more like the familiar and the familiar would become more like the human. So lets extend this line of reasoning to the stark children. Of the 6 original wolves/wargs, 5 wargs and 4 wolves still live. When Jon/ghost says that 4 remained, he could be referring to the 4 starks (including jon) that still have wolves. He could be saying that 4 warg/wolves remain, while the one that Jon/ghost can no longer sense would actually refer to Sansa/Lady. Ghost/Jon can no longer sense Sansa because their connection through the wolves has been broken.