World of Ice and Fire content on the wiki

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

With the release of several previews/samples of the World of Ice and Fire, some of the contents have appeared on the wiki.

I've rewritten a few of those pages, and placed the information on character A mentioned on the page of character B, also on the page of character A, for example.

But I just heard that not all the previews/samples were approved, so I'm wondering here now, which parts of the World of Ice and Fire are we allowed to put on the wiki, and is there anything on there now concerning the previews/samples that should be removed until the book is actually released? Because if so, and I was the one who put it up there, sorry, I didn't know, just let me know and I'll delete it again.

[Ran]

Not all previews are approved. PDFs are intended for internal use, and while it's out in public, it shouldn't really be used (especially the family tree -- that's old.)

My preference is that the wiki should not update based on unpublished or incomplete material. GRRM's reading a chapter doesn't mean that chapter is in final form, etc., and sometimes details can substantially change. Nothing is final -- not even those preview texts -- until they are published.

Finally, even when the World of Ice and Fire is published, all its new content shouldn't be ripped out and wikified within days. Just as we did with the Lands of Ice and Fire, 3 months should pass before the wiki is updated with the book's content.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So should the stuff that has appeared on the wiki yesterday be taken down again?

[Ran]

I think that would be best.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok, everything that I saw yesterday and this morning as having appeared on the wiki from the World book samples has now been deleted.

:)

I hope I caught it all..

[RumHam]

Finally, even when the World of Ice and Fire is published, all its new content shouldn't be ripped out and wikified within days. Just as we did with the Lands of Ice and Fire, 3 months should pass before the wiki is updated with the book's content.

I did not know about this rule. Does it apply to everything (like Winds of Winter when it comes out) or just infodumps like the world and map books?

Also there are still a few things on there citing The Rogue Prince which isn't even out yet, like http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Saera_Targaryen

[Ran]

Yeah, not supposed to be there. If you spot anything else of the sort, please feel free to delete it.

We've said the same for the books previously, the same policy as we have on the forum to prevent undue spoilers.

[Scafloc]

As I recall when ADWD was published we forum was off limited but the wiki was not.

At that time there was a lot of enthousiasm to add material to it. I think we should support that.

To be clear this is my opion on what is published, not what is leaked our coming from hearsay

[Ran]

At the least, in that case, given that the world book is -- like the Lands of Ice and Fire -- really information focused, that that is it's main selling point, it's only appropriate that the wiki not infringe on that for a time. I don't want to read about people not buying the book because all the information is free on the wiki, just as no one wanted to hear about the map collection not being bought for similar reasons.

[Scafloc]

Text should not be copied but that is always the case. But references are allowed by law.

About the maps: we should not copy them. I was and am not too happy that some maps are copied. But I we make a wiki with together

[Ran]

We're not saying that it won't be put on there in time, but I absolutely do not support the informational content of the book -- whose mean selling point is the information it contains -- being stripped out _immediately on publication_ and placed elsewhere. Yes, there may well be a legal right to do a thing, but morally speaking it's not cool.

If people want more works like this to come out, if they want Fire and Blood or a post-series revised edition of The World of Ice and Fire to come out, a modicum of restraint in support of these works is really not much to ask. Three months is hardly an eternity for a book that has been in the works for 8 years.

[Scafloc]

Adding a reference is hardly the same as stripping a book on publication. Nor do I think that (reference) is morally wrong

What is the definition of informational content?

[Ran]

Look at the excerpt I just posted. If someone creates an article on the Wiki. about the Second Spice War, describing the details from that excerpt, that's taking the essential information and putting it elsewhere. If they go to the Rhoynar article and rattle off the list of the names of the various Rhoynar-Valyrian wars noted there, that's taking informational content.

Now, if you're thinking someone might put in a reference like this: "The World of Ice and Fire reveals a great deal concerning the conflict between the Rhoynar and the Valyrians," that's a reference that I'm fine with before the three month period.

But for that time, I'd consider it a very good thing if people allowed the book to be the source of such informational tidbits rather than the wiki.

[Scafloc]

Based on your excerpt:

Princess Nymeria is mentioned and as she als mention in the book I think it would be ok if we add a reference that she opposed going to war.

And for Garin it would not be stripping a book of its content if we say that he was the driving force of the party that we wanted to go to war. NB we already know he was a leaded in a Roynish Valyria war

[Ran]

Ah, well, if the book confirms information already extant, that's not exactly new info. I'm more concerned with genuinely new info.

[Scafloc]

I have not read that book. But from you excerpt I would only add the references I just mentioned. Everything else is really to much detail.

Oh and that Garin lost but we knew already

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So, just as an example for more recent times (since the World Book will be released in October):

Information from Rogues. Would you say that we'd be allowed to place her in the family tree template, but not yet create a page on who she is/what she did?

Just an idea: since the information on the three month wait seems to be new to a lot of us, concerning editing the wiki, and since there are a lot of people out there enthusiastic to update the wiki, perhaps a warning should be placed on the wiki for all those logged in? I'm not sure where such a warning should be placed, but perhaps it is an idea, so, should someone want to place info from, like, your excerpt from today, they'd see the warning and think "Oi, I should not be doing this!"

[Ran]

I think updating a family tree on publication is okay. Creating content-filled pages for them not so much.

Some policy clarification somewhere would be good. Again, I'm just concerned about lengthy articles presenting new facts that are presented in the book.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't know if it's possible, but perhaps it's possible to put a warning about this on the edit pages? As in, you don't see a warning when you're just visiting/reading the wiki (no matter if you're loggen in or not), but when you click on edit, you get the regulat edit-page, but with a warning about the policy somewhere..

And if that's not possible, that clicking edit will lead you to a page in between, telling you the policy on editing the wiki in short..

Again, I don't know if such a thing is possible.. But if it is, perhaps that's an option? If only for those times until the World Book has been released for 3 months? (then you've immediately covered the Rogues period as well)

[RumHam]

I don't know if it's possible, but perhaps it's possible to put a warning about this on the edit pages? As in, you don't see a warning when you're just visiting/reading the wiki (no matter if you're loggen in or not), but when you click on edit, you get the regulat edit-page, but with a warning about the policy somewhere..

Someone really should do this before the worldbook comes out. I see a lot of Rogue Prince stuff on there already. Can't really fault people for not following a the rules when they're not mentioned anywhere but this thread as far as I know.