Crypts of Winterfell

[ReRe]

All the Starks who have been King in the North or Lord of Winterfell whose bodies haven't gotten lost are burried down there. Ned, obviously, hasn't reached Winterfell yet, but perhaps he might someday.

Lady Dustin wanted to visit her old love, Brandon, who, despite never having been Lord of Winterfell, was burried down there, with his sister Lyanna, as two exceptions.

There were 4 swords missing, IIRC, because Bran and co took them, to be able to defend themselves. That the swords are gone won't mean anything for the dead though.

Jons crypts dreams could indicate that there is something down there to proof Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child together. Whatever it will be, it will most likely be hidden in Lyanna's tomb, which is at the end.

There are three swords missing (Ned's, Lord Rickard's, and Uncle Brandon's). They were taken by Osha, Meera, and Bran. The missing swords are important, because the Starks are buried with their swords to keep their ghosts at rest. (CoK, 960-961).

[Lady Woodland]

Nah , the horn is there and that's why the spearwives were asking Theon to show them where they are. It's logical that it would be there. Joramun was the one who fought Night King with Starks. Mance did not find it beyond the wall so the next possible location is the crypts of Winterfell assuming that that Stark that fought together with Joramun took the horn from him. The horn that is with Sam being the Horn of Joramun would be pretty random.

This may be true, however the cache that Ghost led Jon too was freshly dug - he noted the weapons & horn looked old, however the black double weave cloth it was wrapped in showed no evidence of decay or mildew leading him to believe it was recently placed there by a Black Brother.

Can you think of a black brother who would have had access & knowledge of the WF crypts during the last year & has mysteriously now disappeared on his last ranging???

[Muggle]

Lyanna is buried under in the crypts so she can be under the heart tree. Her sword is missing so now her ghost if free to wander.

What this means is when Jon eventually makes his way to the crypts he will be bale to see an apparition of Lyanna to reveal his parentage. Jon will be bale to communicate with her via the Heart Tree.

Bones Remember.

Also this type of reveal is much more personal and full of emotion then having some 3rd party ride up and spill the beans. Its just subtle.

Obv this isnt Neds plan but GRRM's

But this is all speculation.

[sj4iy]

Lyanna is buried under in the crypts so she can be under the heart tree. Her sword is missing so now her ghost if free to wander.

What this means is when Jon eventually makes his way to the crypts he will be bale to see an apparition of Lyanna to reveal his parentage. Jon will be bale to communicate with her via the Heart Tree.

Bones Remember.

Also this type of reveal is much more personal and full of emotion then having some 3rd party ride up and spill the beans. Its just subtle.

Obv this isnt Neds plan but GRRM's

But this is all speculation.

...she never had a sword, though.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

bump

[AlaskanSandman]

Hello everyone and welcome to this thread!

 

I'd like us to explore together parts of ASOIAF that mention crypts of Winterfell.

 

In the light of the latest revelation of the Stark family tree, I believe we can shed more light on issues like:

 

- who do we know was definitely buried there?

- where are Ned Stark's bones?

- what was lady Dustin searching for in the crypts?

- how many missing swords are there?

- is there a meaning behind the fact that some swords are missing? Does that alter somehow the status of the dead Starks?

- what do Jon Snow's dreams of the crypts mean?

- what can be hidden in the layers of Winterfell below the crypts?

 

Feel free to message me your additional questions and issues we may discuss, so that I can add them to this thread.

 

Let's all enjoy, play by the rules and have fun with this material. :-)

   To answer your first question as i was curious too to prove the true histories in my other theory of time. 

 

  AGOT ch66 BranVII

 Bran list Jon, RIckard, Theon the Hungry wolf, Brandon the Shipwright, Brandon the Burner, Rodrik, Torrhen Stark, Lord Cregan, and Rickard and his children.

 Bran initially calls them Kings of Winter while Maester Luwin goes on to call them Kings in the North. A few listed are obviously Lords.

(I believe Lords are listed on one side while the Kings are on the opposing side, tho i could be mistaken. I believe as they enter they start at the older kings working there way forward in time. ) 

 

 ACOK ch69 Bran VII

 They're already deep in the crpyts located at his fathers tomb when they light a torch and he list off

 ALL LORDS- Edwyle, Willam & brother Artos the Implicable, Donnor, Beron, Rodwell, Jonnel, Barth, Brandon, and Cregan.

 

 As they leave Bran goes on to List a line of Kings names.

 ALL KINGS- Torrhen the king who knelt, Edwyn the Spring king, The Hungry Wolf (Theon), Brandon the Burner, Brandon the Ship Wright, Jorah & Janos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bride Groom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet, Benjen the Bitter, and Edric SnowBeard. 

(Note the discrepancy in order like Theon's placement.)

 

 The Turn Cloak ADWD

 Theon in the crypts with lady Dustin states "The ones on this side were kings in the north." (why i believe the other side to be lords)

 He then list with his shady memory King Edric SnowBeard, Brandon the Shipwright, and Theon the Hungry Wolf.

 

 7 Lords are not listed, only 10. There were 17 Lords including Eddard. So i imagine that there is an equal or close to equal amount of kings. After Eddards Crypt is more empty crypts. Just on the Lords side? or both sides? If just the Lords then there are possibly more unlisted Kings. I believe the Age of Heros ended 2000 years ago with the Andal Invasion, and House Stark started in the Age of Heroes with Garth Green and Brandon the Builder. So i dont personally think there are very many more unknown kings. Though there are definitely some.

 

AS FAR AS MISSING SWORDS> Bran and company take his fathers, his uncles, and his grandfathers. No more.

 As Eddard enters the crypts with Robert he states that some of the older swords had rusted to dust. This would emply that some of the older ones were indeed rusted, but they would all be beside each other and easy to identify.

 As Theon enters tho, Lady Dustin and him Notice a sword missing from one of the Kings. This would stand out as the kings around him must still have their swords, meaning this missing sword had not rusted to dust. My thoughts are that at this point in the novel that its Mance who is at Winterfell snooping in the crypts.

 

 Theon and Bran state that they've heard that there are lower levels but that neither of them have actually been down there. Bran states that he heard this from Jon, though Jon doesnt seem to have gone down either. Eddard mentions the deeper levels too with no mention of actually being down there. So what exactly is down in the lower crypts is actually unknown. The level every one has been on is veryyyy deep as when Bran and company are down in it, one of them ascends the steps and takes them along time, and the light of the their torch disappearing in the darkness. Especially when coming down steps, it doesnt take that long. The lower levels are veryyyyyyy deep, and may even be caves that connect to the ones under the wall and north of the wall. May even connect to Casterly and serve as transport system for the Children. Idk.

 

Hope that helps some tho.

[Van Gogh]

Lady Dustin still have feelings for Brandon Stark.  He took her virginity.  She just wanted to see his tomb.  The swords were taken by Bran, Osha, and the Reeds.  Jon's mother is Lyanna.  The knowledge of who his mother is, is the importance of the crypt to Jon Snow.  I don't think there's a dragon snoozing in the crypts.

[Rickyhunt]

OK obviously no one knows for sure what is down there besides Martin but ill guess at it.

I believe that the Harp Of Rhaegar is down there and a blue winter rose

[purple-eyes]

OK obviously no one knows for sure what is down there besides Martin but ill guess at it.
I believe that the Harp Of Rhaegar is down there and a blue winter rose

You are kidding. A blue winter rose after 20 years in a tomb?
You sure it is still a blue winter rose?
It will degrade into nothing there.

[Rickyhunt]

It could be preserved somehow is it so weird to think a rose could be preserved in a story full of magic dragons zorses giant elks giants and all kinds of weird stuff?

[purple-eyes]

It could be preserved somehow is it so weird to think a rose could be preserved in a story full of magic dragons zorses giant elks giants and all kinds of weird stuff?

The problem is " preserved by whose magic and for what purpose? "
You may just claim lyanna was preserved by magic there and she will reborn to talk with jon about her story in stead of a preserved rose.

[Rickyhunt]

Why not just put inside a jar or book? Wouldn't that preserve it somewhat?

[purple-eyes]

Why not just put inside a jar or book? Wouldn't that preserve it somewhat?

Sure. You know what? This blue rose in the tomb (jar or book) is indeed the one Dany saw in the visions.
Jon snow is going to give this one to dany and fill the air with sweetness.

[Harry Angel]

I hope Robb and Greywind get statues before the series ends

[The scourge of westeros]

 
Wow, I'm loving that idea. And its true that Dance 2.0 needs to have more complexity than only 3 dragons. The only thing is... It takes dragons forever to grow so I'm not sure how that would work out with Jon having to sit there and wait for the dragon to get bigger.
 
Dany's dragons will already have a good deal of aging and strength on them. Hers, however, are untamed. Would be interesting if Jon could get his tamed at his will.

It's not really that dragons take so long to grow, as much as the timeline of the story is rather condensed. We've seen Dany's dragons grow relatively fast considering they're probably only 2-3 yrs old. Remember free range dragons grow quicker and larger than those in captivity, not to mention iirc some have lived over a century.
I myself think it's too late into the story with a finite timeline till end events for more dragons to be birthed at this point.. But I could be very wrong.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Maybe it's as simple as Ned, having already buried Lyanna in there, decided to cast tradition aside and let all Starks who so desire be buried in Winterfell in the future? I mean, once a rule has got enough exceptions, you might as well stop enforcing it.

 

Eddard the Reformer. Has a nice ring to it, too.

My thought has always been that Brandon outlive his father for a few short moments, therefore becoming the Lord of Winterfell (or at least in Ned's mind)

As far as Lyanna, there is a good chance she died a Targaryen Princess, that probably deserves a statue in Ned's opinion, even if no one else could know.

[Lisa0527]

Actually I believe in Stark lords spirit rising theory.Because both Arya and Rickon had some weird expriences in Crypts.Arya mentions that she played " come into my castle" with dead Starks in crypts and Rickon was practicing sword fighting with statues in the crypts.
I think Stark Lords will somehow talk to Stannis or Northern Lords.But this kind of thing is actually not in GRRMs writing style.
Rather then R+L evidince I think we either find original sword "Ice" or something powerful to use.

Do you have a source for this theory or a link to a thread that discusses it? I've been thinking about it recently. And the line in the NW vow, "I am the horn that wakes the sleeping". Maybe the "sleeping" dead Starks. Rising for Ragnarok.

[bemused]

Nice to see this bumped up again.

 

I don't think we'll see an allegorical replay of Ragnarok.. so I don't know about dead kings rising. Their ghosts may rise, but there's only so much a ghost can do.

 

I do think there may be some artifact or other hidden in the accessible crypt level that would prove Jon's parentage, but I'm also very curious about what lies beyond the supposed collapse.

 

I'm convinced there is a secret entrance /exit ..and I'm convinced that like Winterfell (and it's "vast" crypts), it will be on a grand scale. We have numerous examples of "under levels" in places like King's Landing, Casterly Rock , etc., or the Hightower built over an existing ancient fortress. ... Even Castle Black has it's wormways.

 

(If there's truth to the Bael the Bard story,it would explain how the lovers survived for a year or so.)

 

I'd be very surprised if GRRM wasn't aware of places like Derinkuyu , in Turkey :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city

 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=underground+city+turkey&biw=1236&bih=577&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQsARqFQoTCKXxmsKw6scCFZCYiAod03IN-Q&dpr=1.1#imgrc=Bzq3HqNrRFtWFM%3A

 

Given his thinking tunnels and caves are "cool" (see GRRM/Robin Hobbs event) I think places like Derinkuyu would be inspiring to him.

 

There may not be something that grand at WF, but I do expect there will be something considerable. Winterfell may be constructed over a former CotF "stronghold", like their cave north of the Wall (and there are possible hints in the niches seen in their cave and details in an upcoming Arianne chapter, that not all their caves were left totally in a natural state). ...  Especially if WF was built as a "fall back" position for the Wall, as well as a seat for the Starks, I expect modifications would have been made to make the underground suitable for the use of men.

 

In such a case, I would expect there might be a sizeable cache of obsidian weaponry, storerooms, possibly room for livestock (see CotF goats), and the possibility of many questions being answered, such as: Where is the original "Ice" ,where is "Dark Sister", where is the original crown of the old KoW?..( even if men have forgotten how to get in, the CotF could have placed any of them there).. There could also be old runic histories even more valuable than the books in WF's destroyed library. Dragon eggs ?... Maybe.. the only bounds to the possibilities are those in GRRM's imagination - which is to say, practically none.

[Knight of the Amused Tree]

 

Nice to see this bumped up again.

 

I don't think we'll see an allegorical replay of Ragnarok.. so I don't know about dead kings rising. Their ghosts may rise, but there's only so much a ghost can do.

 

I do think there may be some artifact or other hidden in the accessible crypt level that would prove Jon's parentage, but I'm also very curious about what lies beyond the supposed collapse.

 

I'm convinced there is a secret entrance /exit ..and I'm convinced that like Winterfell (and it's "vast" crypts), it will be on a grand scale. We have numerous examples of "under levels" in places like King's Landing, Casterly Rock , etc., or the Hightower built over an existing ancient fortress. ... Even Castle Black has it's wormways.

 

(If there's truth to the Bael the Bard story,it would explain how the lovers survived for a year or so.)

 

I'd be very surprised if GRRM wasn't aware of places like Derinkuyu , in Turkey :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city

 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=underground+city+turkey&biw=1236&bih=577&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQsARqFQoTCKXxmsKw6scCFZCYiAod03IN-Q&dpr=1.1#imgrc=Bzq3HqNrRFtWFM%3A

 

Given his thinking tunnels and caves are "cool" (see GRRM/Robin Hobbs event) I think places like Derinkuyu would be inspiring to him.

 

There may not be something that grand at WF, but I do expect there will be something considerable. Winterfell may be constructed over a former CotF "stronghold", like their cave north of the Wall (and there are possible hints in the niches seen in their cave and details in an upcoming Arianne chapter, that not all their caves were left totally in a natural state). ...  Especially if WF was built as a "fall back" position for the Wall, as well as a seat for the Starks, I expect modifications would have been made to make the underground suitable for the use of men.

 

In such a case, I would expect there might be a sizeable cache of obsidian weaponry, storerooms, possibly room for livestock (see CotF goats), and the possibility of many questions being answered, such as: Where is the original "Ice" ,where is "Dark Sister", where is the original crown of the old KoW?..( even if men have forgotten how to get in, the CotF could have placed any of them there).. There could also be old runic histories even more valuable than the books in WF's destroyed library. Dragon eggs ?... Maybe.. the only bounds to the possibilities are those in GRRM's imagination - which is to say, practically none.

 

 

I like this a lot. Never thought about a "city" being under Winterfell with the castle coming later but there is some sense to it. During the Long Night how did the First Men/Starks who were in the North survive?  An underground city would fit that bill-especially if it were a CotF 'warded" cave like the one Bloodraven currently occupies. Given me something to think about here. Thanks.

[bemused]

You're welcome ! I'm still thinking about it too...

 

I forgot to mention the obvious example  - Mole's Town - a really poor man's version of the idea. (Just as I think the escape tunnel at the holdfast by the God's Eye , used by Arya in ACoK, is a poor man's version of the secret passage under Winterfell.)

 

I don't say it has to be as large as Derinkuyu, but I'm sure it could outdo Mole's Town by a country mile (and then some).