Crypts of Winterfell

[Bowen]

FROM “THE BLOOD MOTIF”

THE UNITY OF BLOOD: WINTERFELL, THE CRYPTS, AND THE WEIRWOOD TREE

“. . . Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions” (79).

The Starks, historically and symbolically, are currently and have been in the past a part of the grey stones of Winterfell, the crypts below, and the weirwood tree in the godswoods. Through personification, Martin humanizes them. For example, since the castle is built over a natural hot springs, “scalding water rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man’s body” (58).

Martin compares water to blood, the substance that sustains life in humans; without blood circulating in their bodies, humans will expire. Furthermore, the hot waters drive “the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing”. About the Winterfell grounds, “Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards”. Thus, Catelyn observes that “in winter, the hot springs and pools are the difference between life and death”.

Martin reveals that “Ned could never abide the heat”. Ironically, since the “Starks were made for the cold”, their earthly remains are stored in the chilly crypts below the castle.

Martin brings the WF crypts to life. As Ned prepares to take King Robert down into the crypts to pay his respects to Lyanna, Ned notes that “He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth” (41). The crypts are like the lungs that exhale cold air as the visitors make their way down the stairs to the tombs, Ned leading Robert “among the dead” (42) identified as “The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass” (42). The great stone statues appear “to stir” and the stone direwolves “curl” around stone feet when Robert roars with laughter: the “echoes rang through the darkness, and all around them the dead of Winterfell seemed to watch with cold and disapproving eyes” (47-48).

Apparently, the expired Starks in stone disapprove of the King’s mirth when paying respects to the dead. Maybe Robert’s jollity annoys the spirits, or they are annoyed by the King’s plans to steal Ned away to serve as Hand of the King.

After Robert asks Ned to be his Hand, Ned feels a “horrible sense of foreboding. This was his place, here in the north” (48). Moreover, Ned “could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And winter was coming” (48). Martin reveals that Ned “knows” that the dead are listening; more importantly, the dead may see and hear that “winter is coming”, which seems a reason for Ned to stay at Winterfell. Winterfell contains blood circulating in its walls, and the crypts breath with statues that stir, watch, and listen, all very human associations.

However, the readers are told that Ned does not believe in signs. This may account for why Ned ignores the dead and decides to honor his King, a decision that may appear reckless to someone who does believe in signs and may have heeded the communications from the dead themselves.

Just as the Starks are historically and symbolically part of Winterfell and the crypts, so is the weirwood that thrives in the godswood:

“Here [in the north] every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face”.

As Lady Catelyn steps upon the deep humus covering the godswood floor, the sound of her footsteps is “swallowed” up:

“A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet . ..” “Swallow” is a word associated with eating or drinking as well as the mouth, teeth, breath, and lips. In this instance, Martin personifies the godswood floor by attributing to it the ability to swallow “sound”, not food.“She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts”.

A tree that watches and thinks parallels Winterfell, the windows of the fortress serve as eyes that also insinuate an intellect that has the ability to contemplate or process information.

When Catelyn finds her husband beneath the weirwood, he sits on a stone. The greatsword Ice rests across his lap, and he cleans the blood from the blade in those waters black as night. After executions, Ned symbolically feeds the roots of the heart tree with the blood that remains on his sword.

Furthermore, Ned assumes the same posture as those dead Stark lords and Kings of Winter in the crypts – even sitting upon a stone just as the statues sit a carved stone throne. This composition, with the unsheathed sword, is non-verbal communication: the Stark dead are not welcoming guests. Martin situating Ned in such a repose foreshadows Ned’s death and the statue that soon will be carved in memorial to Lord Eddard Stark.

What a fantastic post!

Re the Blood thing it only really occurred to me last night whilst reading the Asha chapter,she notices the red sap of a Weirwood tree and it reminds her of blood,not sure if it's died out but we know that human sacrifices were made under these trees so blood may not be far off the mark.

I'd say one of the reasons for the others is connected to this practice dying out,I reckon Ned had some understanding of it as he would clean ice under the tree.

I'd be interested to know if the Kings in the crypts are ever known as sleepers,in the nights watch vows it mentions the horn that wakes the sleepers,could this merely be those along the wall or is it connected to Winterfell and those crypts.

It's certainly central to the whole story whatever it may be as Bran the Builder had a hand in the Wall,Winterfell ect.

As for Lady Dustin well she explained her motives and I've no reason to doubt them.

[Kyll.Ing.]

And this is crackpot territory, but maybe Ned saw another reason to entomb Brandon and Lyanna behind heavy stone tomb slabs. Maybe what's hidden in the Winterfell crypts, specifically behind Lyanna's tomb door, is this particular tunnel entrance/exit (connecting to beyond the Wall).

Concordance is here, all it says is "Winterfell has many tunnels."

Well... while there may be tunnels under Winterfell leading far away, I strongly doubt they are under Lyanna's tomb.

Whoever engineered the Stark crypts knew to plan ahead. There are enough empty niches to bury several more generations of Stark lords, and that's just the corridor that's currently in use (it's hinted that the ancient kings are buried in other corridors, that presumably ran out of space long ago). That same hallway has been in use for centuries, seeing as there are statues there whose swords have rusted to nothing, and are depicting the Stark lords as Kings in the North (so they must have been buried there before the Conquest). Either way, the currently used corridor was built centuries ago, and will remain in use for centuries.

If there had been a tunnel there, Ned Stark wouldn't have been the one to discover it. It would probably have been found during construction, and being well known to the generations of Starks roaming the corridors since. The Starks appear to be fond of "visiting relatives", so the corridors would have had regular visits for many hundred years. It's extremely unlikely that a tunnel entrance could have stayed hidden/forgotten for that long. At best, it could have been kept as a family secret, passed on from father to son.

Either way, we can establish that the hypothetical tunnel entrance in Lyanna's niche must have been around for centuries, presumably discovered by Starks long, long ago and being common knowledge to them. Then why would Ned suddenly stomp all over the family secret and seal the entrance? I mean, he had plenty of places to choose from, he could just as well have put Lyanna/Rickard/Brandon to rest elsewhere. It's not like he would have to put them in the tunnel entrance niche, and fill it in like so many Starks have not done since forever.

In my opinion, Lyanna being buried in the crypts is just Ned breaking tradition for the love of his sister. Besides, it's a good (though not strictly necessary) excuse for Robert and Ned to have a private conversation when Robert visits Winterfell. If anything is hidden in her tomb, it's likely to have been brought there along with her remains. If there was an Ancient Secret in her niche, Ned wouldn't have put a tomb there just like that.

As for what that object could be... no idea. Anything "proving" Jon's parentage would be kinda useless in the long run. Jon would probably believe Ned if he simply told him outright, no need to wave around official documents or Targaryen artifacts. A simple "yes, that's the truth of it" would suffice. And it's not like any other people would need to know the full story. Jon has no ambition to run for the throne, and Ned wouldn't be one to push that on him (not after witnessing what it did to Robert). There are so many other people in Westeros with a half-decent claim to the throne, a desire to sit on it, and competence to rule from it. No reason to throw Jon into the game of thrones, just for the sake of his lineage. Any documents or objects linking Jon to the Targaryens would just put him in unnecessary danger from other claimants.

Also, Ned is the Lord of Winterfell after all. He probably has access to a lot of other, more practical, hidden storage sites than the tomb of his newly dead sister.

[Greymoon]

What about the necklace of Daena the Defiant being buried with Lyanna? A little piece of jewelry, a gift one might give to a lover; and that tells parts of the R+L story...

...

I believe Lady Dustin was looking for clues as to Bran and Rickon; she might have wanted to visit Brandon as well... IMO, Brandon knew something about the crypts and told Barbrey about it...

Here a few quotes:

"Somewhere beneath us are the crypts where the old Stark kings sit in darkness. My men have not been able to find the way down into them. They have been through all the undercrofts and cellars, even the dungeons but..."

aDwD p. 543

Barbrey has been looking for the crypts before she spoke to Theon. She couldn’t find them though. She seemed persistent enough – that makes me think she didn’t just want to visit dead Starks; but knows about eventual tunnels down there, and even that Bran and Rickon might have escaped.

About the location:

"The entrance of the crypts was in the oldest section of the castle, near the foot of the First Keep, which had sat unused for hundreds of years."

aDwD p. 544

Why has the first keep been abandoned?

"Theon had never felt comfortable in the crypts. He could feel the stone kings staring down at him with their stone eyes, stone fingers curled around the hilts of rusted longswords. None had any love for ironborn. A familiar sense of dread filled him. [...] The stone eyes of the dead men seemed to follow them, and the eyes of their stone direwolves as well. [...]"

aDwD p. 545

Swords are missing, Theon doesn't like that because:

"He had always heard that the iron in the sword kept the spirits of the dead locked within their tombs."

aDwD p. 546 (there’s also an iron gate at the entrance of the Winterfell Godswood; and doesn’t Jon chain up the “bodies” in the ice cells with iron chains?)

"Lord Rickard," Lady Dustin observed, studying the central figure. The statue loomed above them -- long-faced, breaded, solemn. He had the same stone eyes as the rest, but his looked sad. "He lacks a sword as well."

It was true. "Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon's is gone as well." [...] "You knew him" Theon said. [...] She threw one last lingering look at the likeness of Eddard Stark. "We are done here."

aDwD p. 546-548;

Here, I think it’s pretty clear that Barbrey found what she was looking for. Clues, I think she suspects that there’s a way out of Winterfell, beneath the crypts; and seeing the missing swords tells her that someone has been down there.

About the iron, I don’t know.

[Greymoon]

Tunnels between Winterfell and the Wall would be in the realm of 600 miles, give or take. Which seems pretty ridiculous.

That there is something of import down there makes sense. That people could travel several hundreds of miles underground on an unknown route, etc. is hackneyed and lame as a story event/device.

Who is speaking of story device?

There being tunnels doesn't mean we would see them all, or that people would use them all, and not get lost. Remember Gendel's children? I think we must also accept that some elements of the story will always remain mysterious, some plot points will never be entirely developed, and we'll be left guessing. I don't think for ex. that we'll ever get the whole story of the Night's King, or understand the whole purpose of the Night's fort (and it's strange kitchen) etc.

Winterfell is said to have been built by Brandon the Builder, and possibly has some old magic woven into its stones as well; the same is true for the Wall -- but for a fantasy series, so far magic has been on the margins, some forms of it very subtle. I expect magic to play a bigger role in WoW but don't expect a 90° change in GRRM's story telling -- there will be loose ends, things hinted at but never clearly stated etc. etc.

I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly what is under the crypts tbh.

ETA: btw, there about 200 km of tunnels underneath the village of Saint Emilion. 200 km is not 600 miles, but these tunnels date from the 8th to the 13th century, and it's RW. There's an underground monolithic Church as well...

[Bowen]

Who is speaking of story device?

There being tunnels doesn't mean we would see them all, or that people would use them all, and not get lost. Remember Gendel's children? I think we must also accept that some elements of the story will always remain mysterious, some plot points will never be entirely developed, and we'll be left guessing. I don't think for ex. that we'll ever get the whole story of the Night's King, or understand the whole purpose of the Night's fort (and it's strange kitchen) etc.

Winterfell is said to have been built by Brandon the Builder, and possibly has some old magic woven into its stones as well; the same is true for the Wall -- but for a fantasy series, so far magic has been on the margins, some forms of it very subtle. I expect magic to play a bigger role in WoW but don't expect a 90° change in GRRM's story telling -- there will be loose ends, things hinted at but never clearly stated etc. etc.

I'm not sure we'll ever know exactly what is under the crypts tbh.

ETA: btw, there about 200 km of tunnels underneath the village of Saint Emilion. 200 km is not 600 miles, but these tunnels date from the 8th to the 13th century, and it's RW. There's an underground monolithic Church as well...

Absolutely nothing wrong with mystery,I'd hate to know every little detail.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

In my opinion, Lyanna being buried in the crypts is just Ned breaking tradition for the love of his sister. Besides, it's a good (though not strictly necessary) excuse for Robert and Ned to have a private conversation when Robert visits Winterfell. If anything is hidden in her tomb, it's likely to have been brought there along with her remains. If there was an Ancient Secret in her niche, Ned wouldn't have put a tomb there just like that.

All Starks are buried in the crypts. It's the statue that is the break with tradition. And quite frankly if she was Rhaegar's wife and thus a Princess of Westeros, she rated a statue. Giving Brandon one could have been just so no one would ask about Lyanna's statue.

[Greymoon]

Just a thought:

Derinkuyu Underground City is an ancient multi-level underground city of the Median Empire in the Derinkuyu district in Nevşehir Province, Turkey. Extending to a depth of approximately 60 m, it was large enough to shelter approximately 20,000 people together with their livestock and food stores. It is the largest excavated underground city in Turkey and is one of several underground complexes found across Cappadocia.

Theon notices how during winter storms the air in the crypts is warmer than above grounds. IMO we cannot exclude that some underground structures were built for harsh winters. Mel had a "vision" of hundreds of fires burning in caves and being snuffed out IIRC.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_Underground_City

[Fool of a Book]

Or it simply means that the Wolves of Winterfell knew where to find the exit of the tunnel, and were there waiting until Gendel would come out.

Because if the tunnel ended in Winterfell, then Gendel would have the advantage, taking the Starks unaware.

The Concordance says nothing about a secret tunnel leading out of Winterfell, indeed. It only states that there are tunnels, like one of the tunnels that Bran uses to get to the north gate when starting at the south gate.

And how would the wolves of Winterfell (pointedly of Winterfell, not some random Northmen) know exactly when Grendel would come out, seeing that they passed under the Wall unnoticed?

Are you suggesting maybe that there was some permanent retinue of Stark men guarding the exit? If so, where? If not Winterfell. The wolves of Winterfell are Starks, not random kinsmen loitering about the North.

If there is a entrance/exit in the North, and the text points to that, where else would it be?

PS an entrance is the same as an exit in this instance.

And if the tunnels are anything like the one Bran encountered under the Wall, they lead from here to there, not from here to here, or from there to there.

See Grendel. The tunnel led from beyond the Wall to where the Wolves of Winterfell were easily found.

[Modesty Lannister]

And how would the wolves of Winterfell (pointedly of Winterfell, not some random Northmen) know exactly when Grendel would come out, seeing that they passed under the Wall unnoticed?

Are you suggesting maybe that there was some permanent retinue of Stark men guarding the exit? If so, where? If not Winterfell. The wolves of Winterfell are Starks, not random kinsmen loitering about the North.

If there is a entrance/exit in the North, and the text points to that, where else would it be?

PS an entrance is the same as an exit in this instance.

And if the tunnels are anything like the one Bran encountered under the Wall, they lead from here to there, not from here to here, or from there to there.

See Grendel. The tunnel led from beyond the Wall to where the Wolves of Winterfell were easily found.

My belief at this stage is that, if there are tunnels leading to one or more directions, they are locked with gates similar to the one in Nightfort. That one can only be opened by a brother of the NW. The WF ones subsequently can only be opened by a Stark. That's why, amongst other possibilities, there must always be a Stark in WF. Note that both the Wall and WF were built by Brandon the Builder. If he keyed the Wall to the NW, it seems reasonable that he keyed WF to the Starks. I'm not sure who Storm's End is keyed to. Baratheons came thousands of years later.

[Arya Stark Rules]

I find the idea that a proof of R+L=J should be in the crypts kind of annoying.

It´s like hiding a Targ-family secret in the crypts of the Starks. If anything should be hidden there, it should be proof of the Stark´s bloody past. Their connection to whatever is happening north of the wall.

I agree, and even any proof there is no proof strong enough to prove anyone is a Targaryen.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I agree, and even any proof there is no proof strong enough to prove anyone is a Targaryen.

A Targaryen wedding cloak in Lyanna's tomb would be more than enough for most people to believe Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son.

And this would not be just a Targ family secret, Beorn Snow. It's also a Stark family secret because Jon's mother was a Stark.

[Bloodmane]

Re the Blood thing it only really occurred to me last night whilst reading the Asha chapter,she notices the red sap of a Weirwood tree and it reminds her of blood,not sure if it's died out but we know that human sacrifices were made under these trees so blood may not be far off the mark.

I'd say one of the reasons for the others is connected to this practice dying out,I reckon Ned had some understanding of it as he would clean ice under the tree.

The whole tradition of the Starks of decapitating those sentenced to die (followed by washing the blood from the sword near the weirwood) seems very much like blood sacrifice. I am convinced that the do-it-yourself executions are closely related to the sacrifice seen by Bran. What struck me (when I re-read the GoT) is that the Statrk children get the pups right after an execution ... just as the gods would offer something in return.

[Lady Woodland]

Aye...

Whilst I agree that we've not seen any such marriage certificates (yet) if you are Rhaegar, and if you are Lyanna, and if you have a secret wedding, and if there's a chance someone might not recognize the wedding as legit (because Rhaegar's meant to be married to Elia of Dorne already)...you take measures, and keep a record to make sure it's legit and no one can question you. (I would, in any case.) That's why I think there's a chance a Septon was involved, and that Arthur and Oswell were acting as witnesses.

If there was a document it would be something like this, written by a Maester/Septon, with signatures of all those involved in the marriage/legitimacy of Jon's birth, it would of course have Rhaegar's Valaryan Dragon seal of wax & possibly the Seal (usually a ring) itself. For it to survive it would be inked on vellum which I believe is what was originally actually used in medieval times, vellum I believe was a kind of parchment made from the skin or gut of an animal, & therefore not be prone to rot like paper. A sealed wooden box, or a leather satchel would further preserve this & any other items included, much the way the cloak buried at the Fist of the First Men contained a cachet of special objects.

[Modesty Lannister]

The whole tradition of the Starks of decapitating those sentenced to die (followed by washing the blood from the sword near the weirwood) seems very much like blood sacrifice. I am convinced that the do-it-yourself executions are closely related to the sacrifice seen by Bran. What struck me (when I re-read the GoT) is that the Statrk children get the pups right after an execution ... just as the gods would offer something in return.

Great point. Really great. Thank you.

[Modesty Lannister]

If there was a document it would be something like this, written by a Maester/Septon, with signatures of all those involved in the marriage/legitimacy of Jon's birth, it would of course have Rhaegar's Valaryan Dragon seal of wax & possibly the Seal (usually a ring) itself. For it to survive it would be inked on vellum which I believe is what was originally actually used in medieval times, vellum I believe was a kind of parchment made from the skin or gut of an animal, & therefore not be prone to rot like paper. A sealed wooden box, or a leather satchel would further preserve this & any other items included, much the way the cloak buried at the Fist of the First Men contained a cachet of special objects.

Great point, but why would lady Dustin or Mance look for that?

Let's agree that lady Dustin has been looking for clues that Rickon and Bran are alive. Why in the crypts? Did she suspect thy would hide there, take weapons from the crypts and run through the tunnels. It seems plausible.

But, why would Mance care for that? Why does Jon dream the crypts all the time? I guess it is a dream induced by the BR.

As for iron, it is said that iron swords serve to stop the ghosts from rising. Note that the First Men fought the Others with iron weapons while CotF fought with dragonglass weapons, which they gave to men as well. So, can it be assumed that Starks are linked with the Others? That there is a fear they may rise when the Others rise? And rise to what purpose? To fight them or fight with them?

[Beorn Snow]

A Targaryen wedding cloak in Lyanna's tomb would be more than enough for most people to believe Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son.

And this would not be just a Targ family secret, Beorn Snow. It's also a Stark family secret because Jon's mother was a Stark.

But kind of dull. Surely somebody can just tell people. Like Bran or Howland Reed?

Much more interesting is something more ancient. Why do the Starks get Direwolves? How are the Others, the Children of the forest, the old gods, Brandon Stark who built the wall, the last hero, the night king all connected? The Starks are a magical family that has forgotten their roots. Surely the crypts attest to that.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Bride cloak no it's too obvious and it just feels wrong.

A letter written in Ly's hand telling Jon some of what happened maybe

Dragon Egg (yes and here's why)

In a sworn sword we find out that True-born Targs get eggs in their cribs.

We learn through out the different books that supposedly there is a hidden cacte of dragon eggs on Dragonstone yet Stannis whom held the castle for 14 years never found them nor did Loras find them.

Yet Rhae was desperate to get them to hatch, he was born under Summerhall where some of the eggs were supposed to have hatched. Yet they didn't

Again Bloodraven goes out of his way to make sure that he gets his hands on the egg the Daemon dreamed would have hatched. Now this is pure speculation but if you look at Dany and the imagery surrounding her when her eggs hatch and moving forward, her dragons especially Drogon would be a black dragon on a red field. (those are blackfyre colors) When she takes her first flight it's her black dragon being lifted off of the burning red sands of the fighting pit. When they are born she's taking a trek through the red waste, a black dragon on a red field. While I'm sure some are going to say well her dragon is just like Aegon Balerion come again. Wait for it I'll get there patience my sweetling.

Now look at the egg that Bloodraven gets his hands on, it's red with bronze coloring and black shot through it. Now that would be a red dragon on a black field(the long night) and bronze for his first man roots. Cat said that bronze and iron are winter's metals that's why their crown was made of these metals. While the shot through it make this dragon the opposite of dany's dragon. Remember in a sworn sword that men would talk about red or black what does it matter. So this dance would be red or black but it's more like the Original Dance with hints of the blackfyre rebellion.

I'm not convinced that there will be no more dragon births. Martian said that there would be no more fires he said nothing about there being no more dragons born. you can't have a dance with 3 dragons I'm sorry that's the conquest all over again not a dance of dragons. Then look at some of the other egg descriptions, there is one egg that is gold and silver, another green/pearl I'm convinced that each egg's coloring represents something about the character or has some trait that connects them to their said egg.

My whole point of this little tirade is that if you were Rhae and you wanted irrefutable proof that Jon was who you said he was prince or no prince you would be expecting the dragon inside to hatch at some so you would want said child to have an egg to fulfill their destiny.

Not to mention that book that Tyrion was reading on the way to the wall that he barrowed from the WF library about Dragon properties why have a book like that when a)the stark have no dragon blood b)all the dragons are all dead

[Mia B.]

All Starks are buried in the crypts but only the Lords have statues. Brandon and Lyanna were not supposed to have statues but they did, nowhere is it said that they were not supposed to be buried there.

Well, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before. Wouldn't Lyanna have been a queen if she had married Rhaegar? Surely that's enough of a status to get her a place down there!

Edit: Where are the women and non-lords usually buried anyway?

[Mia B.]

I'm not convinced that there will be no more dragon births. Martian said that there would be no more fires he said nothing about there being no more dragons born. you can't have a dance with 3 dragons I'm sorry that's the conquest all over again not a dance of dragons. Then look at some of the other egg descriptions, there is one egg that is gold and silver, another green/pearl I'm convinced that each egg's coloring represents something about the character or has some trait that connects them to their said egg.

My whole point of this little tirade is that if you were Rhae and you wanted irrefutable proof that Jon was who you said he was prince or no prince you would be expecting the dragon inside to hatch at some so you would want said child to have an egg to fulfill their destiny.

Wow, I'm loving that idea. And its true that Dance 2.0 needs to have more complexity than only 3 dragons. The only thing is... It takes dragons forever to grow so I'm not sure how that would work out with Jon having to sit there and wait for the dragon to get bigger.

Dany's dragons will already have a good deal of aging and strength on them. Hers, however, are untamed. Would be interesting if Jon could get his tamed at his will.

[Bowen]

Great point. Really great. Thank you.

Yep for sure I would agree with this.