Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Actually, no one WE KNOW beyond Howland Reed can say who Jon is. But that doesn't mean that there aren't others who might. I totally agree. But, the cloak alone doesn't proof a thing re Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Maybe a letter along with the cloak? Personally, I hope Lyanna had a letter for Jon, knowing she was going to die. "My dearest son....I love you.. we never meant for this to happen...but I pray you have a good life...blah...blah" :crying: Too soppy for GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 We all know that Ned is not the reformer type. His character is much influenced by being a second son who came as a replacement-lord (and a replacement-husband..).He may not have accurate descriptions of the death of Rickon and Brandon (we have Jamie's story, and still the order of death is ambiguous - just read the previous posts), so he may have honored Brandon as Lord of Wintrfell (even if for a few seconds) thinking of him as his better.Lyana ... well she could be considered Lady of Winterfell from a Targaryen point of view, with Ned and Benjen traitors - she may have even accepted the title. Ned could offer her the honor of a tomb-and-statue. He stated that it was because she asked it, or for love, it would have looked bad to say to Robert: "Well, she deserves a statue, she was the legitimate Lady Paramount while we were rebels".Are you implying the honourable lord Eddard Stark (to be read in Jaime Lannister's voice) was playing a double game? ;-) I actually agree with you, but be prepared for some stone hurling coming your way mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Actually, no one WE KNOW beyond Howland Reed can say who Jon is. But that doesn't mean that there aren't others who might. Bran and his views from the past through the weirwood tree might be able to shed some light on the topic :) we've already seen through Bran's eyes how Ned expresses his hopes that Robb and Jon would grow up as brothers. I totally agree. But, the cloak alone doesn't proof a thing re Jon. No, that's correct, the cloak alone would only proof that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. To place Jon in the picture, something else is indeed required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I totally agree. But, the cloak alone doesn't proof a thing re Jon. Oh no, I never even thought that there was a cloak in the crypts. Seems the sort of thing that would not fare well in a cold, dark and damp place for years- it also wouldn't be proof of anything. No, I think that if there is something, then it will be more obvious and telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~DarkHorse~ Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Too soppy for GRRM. Yep, and probably too easy a way to reveal R+L=J. Although, I do think a letter would have been a logical thing for Lyanna to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yep, and probably too easy a way to reveal R+L=J. Although, I do think a letter would have been a logical thing for Lyanna to do. Would be, but as sj4iy pointed out, how would a letter survive in that climate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~DarkHorse~ Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Would be, but as sj4iy pointed out, how would a letter survive in that climate? If she wanted Jon to have it one day then I don't think Ned would have put it in her tomb. Maybe give it to Howland where no one would suspect such a thing? However, a letter with such knowledge would be an extremely dangerous thing so It would need to be hidden somewhere no one could accidently stumble across it. I also don't think Ned would want Jon finding the 'clues' in the tomb. He has no memory of his mother, having the only image of her being a skeleton is just plain sad and wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 If she wanted Jon to have it one day then I don't think Ned would have put it her tomb. Maybe give it to Howland where no one would suspect such a thing? However, a letter with such knowledge would be an extremely dangerous thing so It would need to be hidden somewhere no one could accidently stumble across it. I also don't think Ned would want Jon finding the 'clues' in the tomb. He has no memory of his mother, having the only image of her being a skeleton is just plain sad and wrong. Keep in mind that someone set the WF library on fire way before WF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Maybe a letter along with the cloak? Personally, I hope Lyanna had a letter for Jon, knowing she was going to die. "My dearest son....I love you.. we never meant for this to happen...but I pray you have a good life...blah...blah" :crying: What about a marriage certificate signed by a septon (who?) Ser Arthur, Ser Oswell, Lyanna and Rhaegar. If Arthur is still alive (which I doubt, but anyway) I think it is more likely that such revealing clues would be with Arthur. Even if he is dead, I'd guess that Ned wouldn't bury such things with Lyanna's bones, but leave it at Greywatch with Howland Reed. Traveling with any outward Targaryen thing and/or certificate (cloak, sword etc. etc.) and Lyanna's bones would have been risky, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 What about a marriage certificate signed by a septon (who?) Ser Arthur, Ser Oswell, Lyanna and Rhaegar. If Arthur is still alive (which I doubt, but anyway) I think it is more likely that such revealing clues would be with Arthur. Even if he is dead, I'd guess that Ned wouldn't bury such things with Lyanna's bones, but leave it at Greywatch with Howland Reed. Traveling with any outward Targaryen thing and/or certificate (cloak, sword etc. etc.) and Lyanna's bones would have been risky, I think. Does a thing such a marriage certificate exist in Westeros? No mention of it in the books and we had four weddings (and more than one funeral) so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Does a thing such a marriage certificate exist in Westeros? No mention of it in the books and we had four weddings (and more than one funeral) so far. Aye... Whilst I agree that we've not seen any such marriage certificates (yet) if you are Rhaegar, and if you are Lyanna, and if you have a secret wedding, and if there's a chance someone might not recognize the wedding as legit (because Rhaegar's meant to be married to Elia of Dorne already)...you take measures, and keep a record to make sure it's legit and no one can question you. (I would, in any case.) That's why I think there's a chance a Septon was involved, and that Arthur and Oswell were acting as witnesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Aye... Whilst I agree that we've not seen any such marriage certificates (yet) if you are Rhaegar, and if you are Lyanna, and if you have a secret wedding, and if there's a chance someone might not recognize the wedding as legit (because Rhaegar's meant to be married to Elia of Dorne already)...you take measures, and keep a record to make sure it's legit and no one can question you. (I would, in any case.) That's why I think there's a chance a Septon was involved, and that Arthur and Oswell were acting as witnesses. Too many ifs and buts for GRRM. Remember Lysa's case. It was all written before it was revealed. If one actually looked for the links, they were all there way before Lysa went mental on Sansa. That's how GRRM writes. He is throwing clues all around and those who are not blind, will see. Those who are will read eventually. Since we are all on this forum, it means we don't want to be blind, which doesn't mean we aren't. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodmane Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 That's why I think there's a chance a Septon was involved,. The High Sparow?Or would it be too much? What if they said the words below a weirwood (and cut R+L=J in the bark)? Sorry but this really begins to feel like a R+L=J thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Too many ifs and buts for GRRM. Remember Lysa's case. It was all written before it was revealed. If one actually looked for the links, they were all there way before Lysa went mental on Sansa. That's how GRRM writes. He is throwing clues all around and those who are not blind, will see. Those who are will read eventually. Since we are all on this forum, it means we don't want to be blind, which doesn't mean we aren't. :-) Perhaps, but the question is if there is no such certificate, who would believe they were married and that the marriage was legit? The only way for people to believe that is if someone other than Howland Reed reveals it (if there was indeed a marriage of course) that for me means either: 1) that there's a Septon who knows and has the religious authority to marry them legally ; or 2) that there is someone like Arthur with enough of a formidable reputation (+ being Rhaegar's "friend") for people to take his word as true. Howland Reed, a known Stark supporter, just wouldn’t cut it IMO. A cloak wouldn’t either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yes. Let's get back to the topic at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Yes. Let's get back to the topic at hand. Well in that case: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104003-heresy-93-winterfell/ I do think there's tunnels at the very least beneath the crypts...Lots of tunnels; even going as far as the Wall. The original Ice might be buried there too. Does anyone else have the feeling that Winterfell is GRRM’s version of the Tad William’s Hayholt? Not the same, obviously, but similar or a little inspired. GRRM has already admitted he found Memory, Sorrow and Thorn inspiring, so... It's been discussed on Heresy, that in aDwD the bad weather originated in Winterfell....It's difficult to talk about the crypts and not consider Winterfell and the north, its legends etc, as a whole. I mean..."there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and The Night's King might have been a Stark...and what on earth is the difference betwen King of Winter and King in the North? or, Bran the Builder built Winterfell, and...didn't he built the Wall too? What is the importance of Iron swords? Iron gates? There's no talk about the crypts without talk of Winterfell, and no talk of Winterfell, without the Godswood, the Kings of Winter, or the Wall, and the Night's King, and the WW and...all of Old Nan's legends. It's a rather complex and all encompassing subject I think. ETA: also: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81078-winter-fell/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ground_control Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The contents of Lyanna's tomb:(1) Cloak, Black, emblazoned with a red dragon(1) Harp, silver(1) sealed tube containing http://imgur.com/m4mgkMX(1) Door (secret) giving access to tunnels to an ice cell at The Wall(1) Grail, Holy(1) Ark of the Covenant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I do think there's tunnels at the very least beneath the crypts...Lots of tunnels; even going as far as the Wall. The original Ice might be buried there too. Does anyone else have the feeling that Winterfell is GRRM’s version of the Tad William’s Hayholt? Not the same, obviously, but similar or a little inspired. GRRM has already admitted he found Memory, Sorrow and Thorn inspiring, so... Tunnels between Winterfell and the Wall would be in the realm of 600 miles, give or take. Which seems pretty ridiculous. That there is something of import down there makes sense. That people could travel several hundreds of miles underground on an unknown route, etc. is hackneyed and lame as a story event/device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Keep in mind that someone set the WF library on fire way before WF. Is this a suggestion that a document proving Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son was located in Winterfells library until the fire, which destroyed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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