Crypts of Winterfell

[Modesty Lannister]

Not according to Arya

This is Arya's POV - her tomb has already been set aside in the crypts.

That's an excellent find. I'll try to dig out Lady quote. We might find something more. Thanks.

[Fool of a Book]

Here's one from Ned in GoT:

"The crypt continued on into the darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and insealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children." He made no exclusions, his children include females and sons who would not be Lord of Winterfell.

This is right after Ned tells us that the Lord of Winterfell had carved likenesses, direwolves and swords.

Lyanna seems to be the only female exception with an effigy, but she is certainly not the only female or non LoW buried there.

[VermithorSunni]

I remember distinctly that there is a passage about where Lady was buried and that it's mentioned that only men are buried in the crypts.

Perhaps they meant that only PEOPLE were buried in the crypts. Ned couldn't return Lady's body to Winterfell's crypts because Cersei wanted to have a wolf pelt and she would have been able to demand it. Lady was only buried elsewhere to prevent Cersei from taking her.

[Modesty Lannister]

Here's one from Ned in GoT:

"The crypt continued on into the darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and insealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children." He made no exclusions, his children include females and sons who would not be Lord of Winterfell.

This is right after Ned tells us that the Lord of Winterfell had carved likenesses, direwolves and swords.

Lyanna seems to be the only female exception with an effigy, but she is certainly not the only female or non LoW buried there.

You are absolutely right. I found the quote about the Lady:

Bran felt all cold inside. “She lost her wolf,” he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father’s guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady’s bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned. Bran, AGOT

So, all Starks are in the crypts, but Ned created a statue of his sister and brother who were not supposed to have them. Why? I could understand Lyanna's statue done per her request, but that does not explain Brandon. Ned seemed like a true traditionalist.

[Kyll.Ing.]

Maybe it's as simple as Ned, having already buried Lyanna in there, decided to cast tradition aside and let all Starks who so desire be buried in Winterfell in the future? I mean, once a rule has got enough exceptions, you might as well stop enforcing it.

Eddard the Reformer. Has a nice ring to it, too.

[Modesty Lannister]

Perhaps they meant that only PEOPLE were buried in the crypts. Ned couldn't return Lady's body to Winterfell's crypts because Cersei wanted to have a wolf pelt and she would have been able to demand it. Lady was only buried elsewhere to prevent Cersei from taking her.

No, what I meant is description of the Winterfell graveyard outside the castle. You misunderstood my meaning, but I got the quote now, so we clarified that.

[Modesty Lannister]

Maybe it's as simple as Ned, having already buried Lyanna in there, decided to cast tradition aside and let all Starks who so desire be buried in Winterfell in the future? I mean, once a rule has got enough exceptions, you might as well stop enforcing it.

Eddard the Reformer. Has a nice ring to it, too.

But, is it in his character?

[Fool of a Book]

You are absolutely right. I found the quote about the Lady:

So, all Starks are in the crypts, but Ned created a statue of his sister and brother who were not supposed to have them. Why? I could understand Lyanna's statue done per her request, but that does not explain Brandon. Ned seemed like a true traditionalist.

I believe it's simply Ned honoring Lyanna's request, and Brandon's place as true heir.

aGoT:

"Brandon...was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule."

"Ned had loved [Lyanna] with all his heart...Ned reminded the king 'She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.'...Promise me."

So whatever else Ned may have promised Lyanna, it seems clear that she specifically requested to be buried beside Brandon and Rickard. And that Ned recognized Brandon was the true heir.

Not a stretch for Ned to order likenesses of all three, since they all died during RR (the entire event, not just the rebellion/battles itself.)

Also a convenient plot point for Robert to gaze on Lyanna's stone likeness and gush about her beauty. It's not like we have many examples of portraits otherwise, although there are some tapestries etc. and of course the book Ned reads with the descriptions of all the Royal Families. Likenesses seem to be word-of-mouth otherwise.

[Fool of a Book]

You are absolutely right. I found the quote about the Lady:

So, all Starks are in the crypts, but Ned created a statue of his sister and brother who were not supposed to have them. Why? I could understand Lyanna's statue done per her request, but that does not explain Brandon. Ned seemed like a true traditionalist.

I'm making a separate post for this, hope that's OK.

It's my impression that the stone likenesses are not free-standing statues, but very deep relief carvings.

Ned GoT (just cause I have that chapter handy):

"Their likenesses were carved into the stones that sealed their tombs."

So they have to be carved deep enough to have laps for the swords, but they are also part of the actual stone that seals the tomb. Only partially 3D, carved into the stones, not full statues.

I imagine them like this, only seated, so deeper from the waist down to allow a lap, and a direwolf at the feet.

Not sure if that distinction matters to anyone. Also not sure how the stone effigies are described in later chapters, if that description changes.

[Lady Woodland]

The Concordance wriitten by Ran & Linda on this site confirms there are tunnels beneath Winterfell just as ML has stated.

[Modesty Lannister]

The Concordance wriitten by Ran & Linda on this site confirms there are tunnels beneath Winterfell just as ML has stated.

Thanks. Link?

[Fool of a Book]

Thanks. Link?

I recently reread SoS and there is also this exchange between JS and Ygritte:

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. [The tunnel] went on and on and on. There are hundreds o' caves in these hills, and down deep they all connect. There's even a way under your Wall. Gorne's Way."

"Gorne," said Jon. "Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall."

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."

I think there would be very few places where the exit tunnel would be swarming with "Wolves o'Winterfell" other than Winterfell itself.

I think Mance was looking for the tunnel. IMO. It's also a possibility that Benjen and Lyanna knew about it, since we can presume they explored/played in the crypts as children.

And this is crackpot territory, but maybe Ned saw another reason to entomb Brandon and Lyanna behind heavy stone tomb slabs. Maybe what's hidden in the Winterfell crypts, specifically behind Lyanna's tomb door, is this particular tunnel entrance/exit (connecting to beyond the Wall).

Concordance is here, all it says is "Winterfell has many tunnels."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I recently reread SoS and there is also this exchange between JS and Ygritte:

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. [The tunnel] went on and on and on. There are hundreds o' caves in these hills, and down deep they all connect. There's even a way under your Wall. Gorne's Way."

"Gorne," said Jon. "Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall."

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."

I think there would be very few places where the exit tunnel would be swarming with "Wolves o'Winterfell" other than Winterfell itself.

I think Mance was looking for the tunnel. IMO. It's also a possibility that Benjen and Lyanna knew about it, since we can presume they explored/played in the crypts as children.

And this is crackpot territory, but maybe Ned saw another reason to entomb Brandon and Lyanna behind heavy stone tomb slabs. Maybe what's hidden in the Winterfell crypts, specifically behind Lyanna's tomb door, is this particular tunnel entrance/exit (connecting to beyond the Wall).

Concordance is here, all it says is "Winterfell has many tunnels."

Or it simply means that the Wolves of Winterfell knew where to find the exit of the tunnel, and were there waiting until Gendel would come out.

Because if the tunnel ended in Winterfell, then Gendel would have the advantage, taking the Starks unaware.

The Concordance says nothing about a secret tunnel leading out of Winterfell, indeed. It only states that there are tunnels, like one of the tunnels that Bran uses to get to the north gate when starting at the south gate.

[Modesty Lannister]

I recently reread SoS and there is also this exchange between JS and Ygritte:

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. [The tunnel] went on and on and on. There are hundreds o' caves in these hills, and down deep they all connect. There's even a way under your Wall. Gorne's Way."

"Gorne," said Jon. "Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall."

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."

I think there would be very few places where the exit tunnel would be swarming with "Wolves o'Winterfell" other than Winterfell itself.

I think Mance was looking for the tunnel. IMO. It's also a possibility that Benjen and Lyanna knew about it, since we can presume they explored/played in the crypts as children.

And this is crackpot territory, but maybe Ned saw another reason to entomb Brandon and Lyanna behind heavy stone tomb slabs. Maybe what's hidden in the Winterfell crypts, specifically behind Lyanna's tomb door, is this particular tunnel entrance/exit (connecting to beyond the Wall).

Concordance is here, all it says is "Winterfell has many tunnels."

I totally agree with all of this. A tunnel beneath or behind Lyanna's tomb sounds interesting. Of course, we have no way of knowing this, but it may happen.

[~DarkHorse~]

Robb will probably never see those crypts. :crying:

I think a Targaryen wedding cloak will be found in Lyanna's tomb to prove R+L=J is legitimate.

I do like the idea of Stark ghosts (especially, if they haunt the Boltons and Freys) but I think that would be one step too supernatural for GRRM.

[Modesty Lannister]

Robb will probably never see those crypts. :crying:

I think a Targaryen wedding cloak will be found in Lyanna's tomb to prove R+L=J is legitimate.

I do like the idea of Stark ghosts (especially, if they haunt the Boltons and Freys) but I think that would be one step too supernatural for GRRM.

A German friend on this forum told me that Robert Strong = Robert Stark in German. Adds a new level of creepiness to Quburn.

Targ cloak doesn't prove Jon's legitimacy, because no one apart from H.Reed can say who Jon is and even if Reed does who would believe him?

[sj4iy]

A German friend on this forum told me that Robert Strong = Robert Stark in German. Adds a new level of creepiness to Quburn.

Targ cloak doesn't prove Jon's legitimacy, because no one apart from H.Reed can say who Jon is and even if Reed does who would believe him?

Actually, no one WE KNOW beyond Howland Reed can say who Jon is. But that doesn't mean that there aren't others who might.

[Ser Leftwich]

Considering the layout of Winterfell, the proximity of the weirwood tree to the crypts may be significant.

The various dreams and magics seemingly coming from the crypts may be coming from the Stark's family tree in the godswood.

[~DarkHorse~]

A German friend on this forum told me that Robert Strong = Robert Stark in German. Adds a new level of creepiness to Quburn.

Targ cloak doesn't prove Jon's legitimacy, because no one apart from H.Reed can say who Jon is and even if Reed does who would believe him?

Maybe a letter along with the cloak?

Personally, I hope Lyanna had a letter for Jon, knowing she was going to die.

"My dearest son....I love you.. we never meant for this to happen...but I pray you have a good life...blah...blah" :crying:

[Bloodmane]

Eddard the Reformer. Has a nice ring to it, too.

But, is it in his character?

We all know that Ned is not the reformer type. His character is much influenced by being a second son who came as a replacement-lord (and a replacement-husband..).

He may not have accurate descriptions of the death of Rickon and Brandon (we have Jamie's story, and still the order of death is ambiguous - just read the previous posts), so he may have honored Brandon as Lord of Wintrfell (even if for a few seconds) thinking of him as his better.

Lyana ... well she could be considered Lady of Winterfell from a Targaryen point of view, with Ned and Benjen traitors - she may have even accepted the title. Ned could offer her the honor of a tomb-and-statue. He stated that it was because she asked it, or for love, it would have looked bad to say to Robert: "Well, she deserves a statue, she was the legitimate Lady Paramount while we were rebels".