HosteenOsteen Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 GRRM so clearly prefers the Blackwoods to the Brackens--worship the old gods, stay loyal after the Red Wedding, even Jaime admires Tytos. It is subtle, but the reader gets it. One of the nice little touches The Tytos-and-Jaime scene is one of my favorite in AFFC and is an example of why I like that book a lot more than some others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Yea I think George paints the Blackwoods a bit more positively, probably because as a family they have closer ties with the Starks. Also I think more fans prefer Bloodraven to Bittersteel. I don't necessarily prefer one over the other (though Tytos>Jonos). Give me the Mallisters (who also stayed loyal after the RW) anyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I don't know if it's because GRRM likes Blackwoods more than the Brackens, but I agree that the Blackwoods comes across as more likeable. I don't dislike the Brackens though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Yea I think George paints the Blackwoods a bit more positively, probably because as a family they have closer ties with the Starks. Also I think more fans prefer Bloodraven to Bittersteel. I don't necessarily prefer one over the other (though Tytos>Jonos). Give me the Mallisters (who also stayed loyal after the RW) anyday. NEVER Tytos Blackwood is a cool character though. Has some awesome armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMB Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I admit, I've always preferred the Blackwoods over the Brackens. Fo what it's worth, I like Bloodraven over Bittersteel also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon I Blackfyre Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Also I think more fans prefer Bloodraven to Bittersteel. Nope. Even tough Bloodraven is kinda cool. As for the Blackwoods, they're more likeable because they stayed loyal. It's really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 NEVER Tytos Blackwood is a cool character though. Has some awesome armor. Always. The Brackens are just a bunch of faithless, wooden-idol-worshipping, bitter bullies. :P The Blackwoods rule. It is known. Seriously though, I agree that the Blackwoods are portrayed in a more positive light by GRRM (and by the MUSH). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Don't forget Hos The Hostage, he definately wins points from me for Team Blackwood. I LOVE the Jaime and Tytos scene from AFFC, up to and even including Tytos turning cold on him. I've read The Princess and The Queen but haven't read the Dunk and Egg novellas yet. I keep MEANING to order them, but haven't done so yet. I can honestly say, so far.....Bloodraven doesn't give extra points to the Blackwoods for me, I don't trust him completely with Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Fools. You like people because Martin means for you to like them. He manipulates you into doing so. And you just think you make up your own mind. The Starks ARE the good guys. And the Blackwoods too. You think you are bucking the trend because you suddenly like Jaime Lannister after Book 3? Think again, Martin manipulated you into liking him, by giving him witty lines, cool sayings and by having him suddenly act in ways that meets with fan approval. Like Jaime uncharacteristically and for no reason disliking Sybil Spicer and treating her like some kind of despicable person, despite the Lannisters pretty much consorting with such despicable people as a matter of course, and despite this despicable person doing the Lannisters a great favour through her despicableness in this particular instance. Martin has Jaime treat Lord Bracken disparagingly, while having him treat Lord Blackwood with honor and respect, when Jaime has no logical reason to do so. He has Jaime take pity on Pretty Pia, where before Jaime had no problem slaying the innocent Jory Cassel or chucking Bran from a window. The examples abound. The point is, certain characters are the "good guys", despite the endlessly repeated claims that there are no good guys in this story. There are. And you are being manipulated all the time to identify with them without knowing why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Fools. You like people because Martin means for you to like them. He manipulates you into doing so. And you just think you make up your own mind. The Starks ARE the good guys. And the Blackwoods too. You think you are bucking the trend because you suddenly like Jaime Lannister after Book 3? Think again, Martin manipulated you into liking him, by giving him witty lines, cool sayings and by having him suddenly act in ways that meets with fan approval. Like Jaime uncharacteristically and for no reason disliking Sybil Spicer and treating her like some kind of despicable person, despite the Lannisters pretty much consorting with such despicable people as a matter of course, and despite this despicable person doing the Lannisters a great favour through her despicableness in this particular instance. Martin has Jaime treat Lord Bracken disparagingly, while having him treat Lord Blackwood with honor and respect, when Jaime has no logical reason to do so. He has Jaime take pity on Pretty Pia, where before Jaime had no problem slaying the innocent Jory Cassel or chucking Bran from a window. The examples abound. The point is, certain characters are the "good guys", despite the endlessly repeated claims that there are no good guys in this story. There are. And you are being manipulated all the time to identify with them without knowing why. This thread isn't about Jaime Lannister. The Houses go back far further than the current generation anyway so it isn't the sole factor why people prefer one over another. Cool off, there's no need to mindlessly insult people on lighthearted threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Even more so in the D&E books its the "Brute of Bracken" that breaks the truce by killing a Blackwood. I don't necessarily prefer one over the other (though Tytos>Jonos). Give me the Mallisters (who also stayed loyal after the RW) anyday.Same - Mallisters stayed true to the cause as long as they did out of loyalty, the Blackwoods did it to spite the Brackens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Jaime had no problem slaying the innocent Jory Cassel Well he didn't do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 This thread isn't about Jaime Lannister. The Houses go back far further than the current generation anyway so it isn't the sole factor why people prefer one over another. Cool off, there's no need to mindlessly insult people on lighthearted threads. That WAS a lighthearted quip. And directed at no individual in particular. Would it help if I added three smiley faces at the end? The point is, there is a reason why people like the Blackwoods more. It is because they are clearly portrayed far more favourably by Martin. But in a subtle way. It is not because a reader just wakes up one day and decides that they like the Blackwoods more. I would be interested to hear what aspect of the Brackens has actually been portrayed positively in the books? In contrast, the Blackwoods are shown as honorable, the man is shown to love his young daughter, while the cruel Lord Bracken actually goes out of his way to try and get Jaime to TAKE the honorable old man's daughter as a hostage. Jonos is shown having intercourse with a slattern like a grunting pig. The list goes on. It is quite clear who Martin intends us to like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Well he didn't do that He certainly ordered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 He certainly ordered it. He but then if we open that bucket of worms Robb is a prick for ordering the deaths of innocent Lannister soldier #87 and his slightly simple cousin #420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 He but then if we open that bucket of worms Robb is a prick for ordering the deaths of innocent Lannister soldier #87 and his slightly simple cousin #420 Where was this if I might ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 That WAS a lighthearted quip. And directed at no individual in particular. Would it help if I added three smiley faces at the end? The point is, there is a reason why people like the Blackwoods more. It is because they are clearly portrayed far more favourably by Martin. But in a subtle way. It is not because a reader just wakes up one day and decides that they like the Blackwoods more. I would be interested to hear what aspect of the Brackens has actually been portrayed positively in the books? In contrast, the Blackwoods are shown as honorable, the man is shown to love his young daughter, while the cruel Lord Bracken actually goes out of his way to try and get Jaime to TAKE the honorable old man's daughter as a hostage. Jonos is shown having intercourse with a slattern like a grunting pig. The list goes on. It is quite clear who Martin intends us to like. I understand your premise but it's completely incorrect. I don't prefer the Blackwoods over the Brackens, people liked Jaime even before he 'improved' just like people like Roose. Likewise there's loads of people who dislike Jon Snow on these forums even though if there's a hero to the series he's the most likely candidate.. Fans like who they like for a variety of reasons never just because it's who Martin intends them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thornhart Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Poor Jonos. He was the first to join the Stark/Tully fight at the Crossroads Inn, and in return his son and heir were murdered, his daughter was raped, and his castle was destroyed all by fighting for them, and his land was taken by one of his supposed comrades. And yet people love to throw shit at him and call him a coward and a traitor, especially in comparison to Tytos. No love for the Brackens. Even their House legacy will be a whore inferior to a Blackwood whore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Where was this if I might ask? The books or are all the men in Jaime & Stafford's army as well as all the men who died when he pillaged the west deserving of death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 ,I understand your premise but it's completely incorrect. I don't prefer the Blackwoods over the Brackens, people liked Jaime even before he 'improved' just like people like Roose. Likewise there's loads of people who dislike Jon Snow on these forums even though if there's a hero to the series he's the most likely candidate.. Fans like who they like for a variety of reasons never just because it's who Martin intends them to. Those are the contrarians, who always like the bad guy more, who don't like the good guy just because they want to buck the trend etc. I'm talking about the average fan. Go and run a poll on favourite characters before Jaime's "redemption arc", and I reckon Jaime would struggle to get 10% of the vote. Roose would probably get 1%. Yes, there are fans that even like Euron. But they are a minority. The majority of fans - myself included - like the heroes of the story. And some actually think they are...special is not the right word...call it different...for liking the villain Jaime instead of the heroic Starks. Meanwhile, they just like him because Martin has been deftly steering them in that direction. The contrarians - maybe 10% of fans - will always pick the Ironborn, or Roose or some such person to like. But the bulk of fans are simply steered gently, and enjoyably for them, where the author intends them to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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