Blackwoods and Brackens

[Fire Eater]

^ I was talking about Harry and Hendry separately. The Blackwoods took some of the Bracken land and had to return it in Jaime's terms.

Hendry isn't Jonos's heir either, as he is his nephew and comes after Jonos's daughters in he line of succession. Jonos never said Tytos took those lands. It was likely those lands were taken long ago such as when the Crown gave Bracken lands to the Blackwoods to simultaneously punish the Brackens for supporting the Blackfyres in the Blackfyre Rebellions, and to reward the Blackwoods for loyalty, and in wars long before Aegon's Conquest.

[LewnsLastDance]

bittersteel>bloodraven

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'm not sure "staying loyal after the Red Wedding" should be considered a positive for a Riverlord. Bending the knee was common sense, and Bracken shouldn't be knocked for it. He was loyal, just not suicidal.

[Fire Eater]

I'm not sure "staying loyal after the Red Wedding" should be considered a positive for a Riverlord. Bending the knee was common sense, and Bracken shouldn't be knocked for it. He was loyal, just not suicidal.

Yet he went beyond that by agreeing to war with his former ally for the promise of land.

[Aetta]

Nope. Even tough Bloodraven is kinda cool.

As for the Blackwoods, they're more likeable because they stayed loyal. It's really that simple.

Down to Missy v Barba and the jealousy over that fat old fart Aegon IV, Martin makes the Brackens seem like spoiled little shits.

There is a little more depth of character evoked by House Blackwood: The mystical name of their castle, the many (literal) ravens, the gigantic wierwood, the ties to the Old Gods...all reminds us of magic and tradition. And the way that Missy Blackwood is portrayed as a sweet, innocent young thing and Barba as a resentful and jealous old broad-GRRM has favored House Blackwood as such that I even think of Melissa's body, athletic and toned, as superior to Barba's sloppy mess. And I never even met these ladies!

All in all I have to agree with the OP, there's a bias.

BTW, Bloodraven is not just "kinda cool". He is the embodiment of strength, character, wittiness, charm, loyalty, warrior spirit, wisdom...and he had a cute butt. As I have stated here before, anyone who questions this is subject to being shoved into Maynard's Well, or facing the business end of Dark Sister!

[Elkrider]

We never get to see the Bracken house the way we see Raventree Hall, or meet Bittersteel in-story the way we do Bloodraven. Jaime even has longer and more meaningful conversations with Lord Tytos and Hoster than with Lord Jonos (and we don't meet any of Jonos's kids either). If there's bias towards the Blackwoods, I'd say it's because we've seen more of them, and like what was seen.

[mindchap]

Blackwoods worship the Old Gods, and therefore have more theoretical respect for nature, so I like them. Their arms are awesome, a huge freaking weir wood with ravens.

I like the bookish guy they take hostage, and I like the word Blackwood better than Bracken. Also the same name as the villain from the first Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes, I believe.

If you are down with the trees, you are down with me.

:bang: I knew I had heard "Lord Blackwood" somewhere else. And if the OP is even still reading, I also like the Blackwoods even if we are lead there by the nose, that's kind of the point of fiction anyway.

[Talleyrand]

I'm not sure "staying loyal after the Red Wedding" should be considered a positive for a Riverlord. Bending the knee was common sense, and Bracken shouldn't be knocked for it. He was loyal, just not suicidal.

Yeah, plus I always got the feeling that Blackwood was staying to the Northern cause just to spite the Brackens

[Fat Mac]

Yeah, plus I always got the feeling that Blackwood was staying to the Northern cause just to spite the Brackens

Yea. All Tytos Blackwood needed to surrender was anyone but Jonos Bracken laying siege to his castle. With Jason Mallister, it took the threatening of his sons life to surrender.

[Georginette RR Martine]

What's with Lord Tytos implying that Harry isn't Lord Jonos' bastard ? What does he get with this ?

[HosteenOsteen]

I still think the Blackwood's worship of the Old Gods played a role in their standing by the dire wolf.

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

I still think the Blackwood's worship of the Old Gods played a role in their standing by the dire wolf.

Yes, that may be a factor, but don't forget that the Blackwoods or Raventree Hall has strong familial connections with the Starks of Winterfell.. Lady Alysanne Black was the second wife of Lord Cregan Stark while Lady Melantha Blackwood was Lord William Stark's wife thus making her Ned Stark's great grandmother.. Also if if I am not mistaken, Lord Benjicot Blackwood's son and heir married Lady Mariah Stark, daughter of Lord Cregan and Lady Alysanne.. Actually the Starks have married Blackwoods more than any other families both inside and outside the North aside from the Lockes, Manderlys and Royces..

[Universal Sword Donor]

What's with Lord Tytos implying that Harry isn't Lord Jonos' bastard ? What does he get with this ?

He's implying that Jonos isn't man enough to sire boys while also basically saying Jonos is being cuckolded by his mistress. I find it kind of hilarious his side piece is banging someone behind his back, him being a lord and all.

[Slowpoke Martin]

The point is, certain characters are the "good guys", despite the endlessly repeated claims that there are no good guys in this story.

I strongly agree with this. Actions determine if someone is good or bad, just because we have access to their thoughts doesn't change the actions of the character.

The only grey characters are the ones who we have ZERO inside information about, once you get to know a character, they become good or bad.

[Lion of the West]

I strongly agree with this. Actions determine if someone is good or bad, just because we have access to their thoughts doesn't change the actions of the character.

The only grey characters are the ones who we have ZERO inside information about, once you get to know a character, they become good or bad.

And I strongly disagree in every way, although I understand its easier to narrow things down to the good vs the evulz.

And facts also remaind that what is good or bad varies according to perspective which is different for different people. So unless someone can produce the objective cosmic principle of good and bad, its all grey.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Fools.

You like people because Martin means for you to like them. He manipulates you into doing so. And you just think you make up your own mind.

The Starks ARE the good guys. And the Blackwoods too.

You think you are bucking the trend because you suddenly like Jaime Lannister after Book 3? Think again, Martin manipulated you into liking him, by giving him witty lines, cool sayings and by having him suddenly act in ways that meets with fan approval.

Like Jaime uncharacteristically and for no reason disliking Sybil Spicer and treating her like some kind of despicable person, despite the Lannisters pretty much consorting with such despicable people as a matter of course, and despite this despicable person doing the Lannisters a great favour through her despicableness in this particular instance.

Martin has Jaime treat Lord Bracken disparagingly, while having him treat Lord Blackwood with honor and respect, when Jaime has no logical reason to do so.

He has Jaime take pity on Pretty Pia, where before Jaime had no problem slaying the innocent Jory Cassel or chucking Bran from a window.

The examples abound.

The point is, certain characters are the "good guys", despite the endlessly repeated claims that there are no good guys in this story. There are. And you are being manipulated all the time to identify with them without knowing why.

Which is why I still hope htat Jaime dies. I don't like him.

But on the topic on hand, the Blackwoods sound more cool, what with the Raven Tree and all, but I do prefer Aegor Rivers more than Brynden Rivers.

For the crow is the Raven's poorer cousin, and the Blood Raven became a crow though his own dishonor and treachery

But the beneath the Gold, the Bittersteel is still the Bittersteel!

[Davos is King]

You like people because Martin means for you to like them.

Just like he meant for us to like Darkstar? :lol:

[Halkyon]

Those are the contrarians, who always like the bad guy more, who don't like the good guy just because they want to buck the trend etc.

I'm talking about the average fan.

I think we got it, everyone is manipulated. You make that point, it is of course very trivial: This is fiction. Martin creates characters that people can identify with.

So, if you make your strong point of distinguishing traits of characters in a book and if these distinctions are effective insofar as people in modern times can relate to the feelings and thoughts of people in the books: Why do you lump everyone outside the book together as if there was no difference between them?

Let's look at the characteristics of these two Houses, when the nuances of their feud are described on a higher level of differentiation after the Red Wedding:

Jonos Brackens actions in the aftermath seem to be more aggressive. He wants to take his share of the defeat of his liege. In history, they seem to have poisoned an important religious symbol of the Blackwoods.

Tytos Blackwood is described as very honourable and keeps fealty. Still he is the one who has to pay for it. Also, he seems to be part of the more traditional House than Brackens are, having once been Kings.

Jaimes actions in this scene are not "illogical" to make him more sympathic, they are highly diplomatic: Bracken, who has had no part in bringing down Robb Stark, gets his expectations reduced by Jaime, which is an important part of bringing peace to this feud. Blackwood is tricked by Jaimes nice appearance until he finally realizes that he will pay the highest price in the end of the conversation. I don't get, how you are so easily realizing when people are manipulated by Martin, but not when Martin's characters act manipulative. (edit: and this final reaction of Tytos btw shows us, that wealth and land is important to Jonos; for Tytos it's family)

[HosteenOsteen]

@Halkyon really great post, many thanks