Would the Targaryens have won against Robert if Mace Tyrell had been at the Trident?

[Vvornth]

1) I very much doubt Jorah had time to observe the fight, especially if it lasted for minutes. This is most likely another of the long line of romantic bullshit he spews out all the time. There is no substance in that quote.

If that's your best argument it needs serious work. It's basically your opinion vs Jorah's and your POV is far more limited than a book character's.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Come to think of it Mace's army could have numbered something like 25 000. Remember after Robert was king he sent Eddard to sort Mace out in Storm's End. Eddard's army may have numbered 30 000 and also Mace and his commanders weren't great and also their is no mention of Randyll Tarly in Storm's End.

The tv series does imply Randyll was at the Trident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6GW03WsFgU

1) It's the TV series

2) It doesn't imply anything about the Trident seeing as the exact quote is "Mine was a Tarly boy at the battle of Summerhall." Not only was that battle before Summerhall and the siege of Storms End, it deviates from the books as well.

[new djinn]

Assuming that the Reach could field 60000(much less that in Wot5K), if 20000 when with Rhaegar to the Trident, 10000 were at the Bells with Connington, there was still 30000 with Mace(he doesn't strike me as the sort to things small), so they could've fought to the Targaryen cause if they so choose. And extra 20000 at Trident under Tarly would've made a lot of difference. But they weren't overly committed to it, so they moved on from Targaryen to Baratheon easy enough.

[Weddingcrasher Reborn]

Assuming that the Reach could field 60000(much less that in Wot5K), if 20000 when with Rhaegar to the Trident, 10000 were at the Bells with Connington, there was still 30000 with Mace(he doesn't strike me as the sort to things small), so they could've fought to the Targaryen cause if they so choose. And extra 20000 at Trident under Tarly would've made a lot of difference. But they weren't overly committed to it, so they moved on from Targaryen to Baratheon easy enough.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 50k armies were a thing in medieval times. 30 k seems to be the upper limit to me, at least when it comes to the amount of soldiers who are more or less actively participating. Which is why 30k was the size of both armies engaged in the Trident, both parties already threw in as many men as they effectively could. Not saying that the Tyrell's wouldn't be able to prlong the war and/or change its outcome.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 50k armies were a thing in medieval times. 30 k seems to be the upper limit to me, at least when it comes to the amount of soldiers who are more or less actively participating. Which is why 30k was the size of both armies engaged in the Trident, both parties already threw in as many men as they effectively could. Not saying that the Tyrell's wouldn't be able to prlong the war and/or change its outcome.

They weren't. 20,000 is the upper limit GRRM seems to use in the books. Though you could throw them together for a very short time, which is what happened at the Trident.

One former army of JonCon already in the Riverlands, one army out of KL under Rhaegar and one Dornish one, which may or may not have united with Rhaegar on the march north, adding up to 40000.

Three to four different armies for the rebels, each lead by one of the Lords Paramount. Maybe with the exception of Robert, who basically lost his army at Ashford and during the flight to Stoney Sept. Together 35,000.

[new djinn]

Weddingcrasher Reborn,

Are you implying that Renly couldn't count at Bitterbridge?! How dare you Sir!(i kid, i kid)

Yes, the logistics would be very difficult, but as Bright Blue Eyes mentioned, it can be done, and with additional forces, the Loyalists would force the Rebels to split. And medieval sources have those restrictions, according to Renly's campaign in the Wot5K, GRRM disagrees.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Weddingcrasher Reborn,

Are you implying that Renly couldn't count at Bitterbridge?! How dare you Sir!(i kid, i kid)

Yes, the logistics would be very difficult, but as Bright Blue Eyes mentioned, it can be done, and with additional forces, the Loyalists would force the Rebels to split. And medieval sources have those restrictions, according to Renly's campaign in the Wot5K, GRRM disagrees.

You seem to misunderstand me. It can be done for very short time periods, and the number of armies combined that way depends on the number of roads converging.

Furthermore, Renly's campaign is so out of the ordinary, it shouldn't be used to compare anything. Renly benefits from four out of the five major force multipliers at Bitterbridge, something that is so utterly impossible to achieve in actual combat operations, he marched only ...20,000 men into battle.

If he had a harbour as well, his situation would deserve to be stuffed and preserved as the unachievable ideal of logistics to educate people.

[new djinn]

And i don't disagree with you. I never sponsored the idea of any loyalist great horde moving around, only that Rhaegar could have moved one force, Mace another, Barristan another and their combine effort would put the rebels in a very bad place. But you must agree that Renly at Bitterbridge(20000 mounted), the Slaver armies moving on Mereen(that was already scorched) demonstrate that GRRM doesn't follow realism very closely in this regard.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

That depends on how the three armies should move through the Riverlands to the Trident. There are unlikely to be enough roads far enough apart for that.

I already adressed Bitterbridge, and the slaver armies around Meereen are supplied from the sea, changing the situation completely.

[Fire Eater]

And, again, a vision that immediately follows one of a healthy, adult version of a child who was born dead and deformed is not a sound source.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to.

And, also again, even if we go along with this fan fiction, there are dozens of ways for either combatant to end up dismounted in the middle of battle on a riverbed.

Why do you immediately jump to this scenario? And why has this tale not been spread? Why does no one in Westoros know about this despite hundreds of witnesses to the fight?

Again, must you disparage a theory you disagree with? It doesn't prove that you're right, but that you are being, IMO, disrespectful of someone else's opinion. What you describe doesn't fit the definition of fan fiction, fan fiction it outside canon while this id a theory about inside canon, of which we are given few details.

The series isn't over yet, and we could learn from someone who fought on Rhaegar's side in the battle. I think everyone was more preoccupied with the outcome of the battle, and what did it matter how he died? Even D&E didn't know about how Dameon died until Eustace tells them.

Do you offer any explanation beside the tired response of no loyalists being there? These men don't gossip apparently, they have no need to speak of how Rhaegar only lost this fight due to his overwhelming honor. That's the only explanation as to how Jon C or Barristan or Viserys or Cersei don't speak to it, correct? I mean, there is no other logical explanation is there? Why would these people not think about this when ruminating on Rhaegar if qnot due to ignorance?

I gave my explanation above. Few people spoke of how Daemon died, the focus is on the Hammer and the Anvil.

And you are the one who came in this thread spouting what is, at best, a theory as fact. Not me.

I admitted it is my opinion, and changed that stance while you don't seem to have done the same, so I don't think you are in any position to pluck the same string, no offense. You don't state it as you opinion, but matter-of-factly.

So go peddle holier than thou quotes elsewhere bud.

So much for civility and maturity. There is no need to be rude.

That's a very nice and symbolic vision. But pretty much impossible to have happened literally. If somebody is hit in the chest hard enough to shatter the breastplate, he'll be thrown backwards and land on his back. Unless the hook of the warhammer somehow lodged into the breastplate and Rhaegar dangled from Robert's arm - who as a competent warrior would have used the other side.

Furthermore, with that impact, Rhaegar would be incapable of murmuring anything for at least several minutes. Shattered ribs, breath knocked out of him, drowning in his own blood, it's pretty much impossible.

IIRC, Robert didn't say the war hammer shattered Rhaegar's breastplate, but the spike on his hammer pierced the breastplate. Robert could likely have pulled it out after he struck the blow.

[Fat Trell]

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to.

Again, must you disparage a theory you disagree with? It doesn't prove that you're right, but that you are being, IMO, disrespectful of someone else's opinion. What you describe doesn't fit the definition of fan fiction, fan fiction it outside canon while this id a theory about inside canon, of which we are given few details.

The series isn't over yet, and we could learn from someone who fought on Rhaegar's side in the battle. I think everyone was more preoccupied with the outcome of the battle, and what did it matter how he died? Even D&E didn't know about how Dameon died until Eustace tells them.

I gave my explanation above. Few people spoke of how Daemon died, the focus is on the Hammer and the Anvil.

I admitted it is my opinion, and changed that stance while you don't seem to have done the same, so I don't think you are in any position to pluck the same string, no offense. You don't state it as you opinion, but matter-of-factly.

So much for civility and maturity. There is no need to be rude.

Except we know exactly how Rhaegar died. Again, the comparison to Daemon doesn't hold up. Many have spoke of how Rhaegar died.

Everyone was not preoccupied with the battle. We know men stopped and watched. We know they later spread the tale of how Rhaegar died.

You keep deflecting under the guise of decorum. Worry less about my tone and more about your shoddy logic.

And no, the spike didn't pierce. The term used is "stove in." Which is used to refer to both Rhaegar's armor and chest. Meaning smashed, not penetrated.

[Fire Eater]

Except we know exactly how Rhaegar died. Again, the comparison to Daemon doesn't hold up. Many have spoke of how Rhaegar died.

I was referring to Daemon dismounting for Gwayne Corbray, and BR taking advantage of that to kill him.

Everyone was not preoccupied with the battle. We know men stopped and watched. We know they later spread the tale of how Rhaegar died.

We have never gotten a complete story of the duel, so it is still possible.

You keep deflecting under the guise of decorum. Worry less about my tone and more about your shoddy logic.

No, it is trying to maintain civility and respect in an argument, otherwise the way you present your argument is obnoxious. If called you a racial epithet, would you be wrong to point out I was being racist while we were arguing? Ergo, if you were being rude and disrespectful, would it be wrong for me to point it out? "Shoddy logic?" We are given nothing that goes against the theory, and nothing in the text explicitly saying otherwise. So that doesn't rule it out as impossible IMO. Also, would you please be more respectful. What ever happened to the Golden Rule?

And no, the spike didn't pierce. The term used is "stove in." Which is used to refer to both Rhaegar's armor and chest. Meaning smashed, not penetrated.

I killed him, Ned, I drove that spike right through his black armor and into his black heart and he died at my feet.

Robert's own words

The scenario is possible, IMO.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

I don't think that was at the Trident since he says that was his first kill. It has to be from the battle where Tarly "defeated" Robert.

Plus it's not canon. Robert fought in Gullown before Summerhall or Ashford, and it's well known he that he killed Marq Grafton.

[Stormland's Fury]

Plus it's not canon. Robert fought in Gullown before Summerhall or Ashford, and it's well known he that he killed Marq Grafton.

Yeah agreed. I meant in the canon of the show as the original poster wanted to point out.