Would the Targaryens have won against Robert if Mace Tyrell had been at the Trident?

[Victor227]

The loyalist forces already had a numbers advantage without the Reach forces with them. Robert killed Rhaegar and the loyalists broke. I don't think doubling the size of the army would have changed that. Rhaegar dead, two of the Kingsguard dead, the loyalists break.

That said, having more soldiers could change the outcome - if having those soldiers prevented Robert and Rhaegar from fighting each other. More troops between them, they might not ever get to each other. In which case, I'd bet on a loyalist victory simply based on numbers. They're not gonna break when they have a numbers advantage and the crown prince is rallying them. The rebels would have broken first.

Things actually weren't going too peachy for the loyalists already, before Rhaegar died. The Dornish troops held a flank, and the death of Prince Lewyn Martell broke them, so there was already some serious shaking going on in their battles.

[Cheesedude]

Aye. On that note, Martell dying and the Reach forces shoring up that flank would be interesting, given the disdain they generally have for one another. Working together, they may have even prevented the break there. It really all depends how the Reach forces would be used, where they would be placed, etc. Above all though, do Robert and Rhaegar fight?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

40,000 is an estimate. A low one at that. Stannis states he held Storm's End against all the strength of the Reach.

Oh come on, Stannis was making a point about his own heroics, he wasn't doing a history report.

With the Lannisters siting out, and the North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the Vale allied against the crown. The loyalist forces were the Crownlands, the Reach, and Dorne. That's it. Unless you think Rhaegar's forces were made of only Dornish and Crownland troops, there is no way the entire force of the Reach were with Mace. For one thing we know the Randyl Tarly was fighting in the Riverlands. In fact I'm willing to bet the majority of Rhaegar's forces at the Trident were from the Reach. As the Crownland is not large enough to raise much troops and I doubt Dorne was making up the majority of those forces.

[C0bR]

The Rebels of course had more men in reserve, but there is a reason they did not brought all of them to the Trident.

Just as somebody said above - withdraw into defensive positions, dance around and wait until the massive loyalist host breaks with hunger

[Cheesedude]

Do note that the islands sworn to Dragonstone are part of the Crownlands. So any bannerman of Stannis in the books aside from the Florents and the few stormlords he had at that point could very well have summoned their armies to the Trident. That's not a huge amount, but it means there may have been less Reach troops there than we thought.

Also, the Riverlands were not united. House Darry and several others took the loyalist side and I believe a few Vale Houses did the same. That accounts for some as well.

[TallTyrion]

Oh come on, Stannis was making a point about his own heroics, he wasn't doing a history report.

With the Lannisters siting out, and the North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the Vale allied against the crown. The loyalist forces were the Crownlands, the Reach, and Dorne. That's it. Unless you think Rhaegar's forces were made of only Dornish and Crownland troops, there is no way the entire force of the Reach were with Mace. For one thing we know the Randyl Tarly was fighting in the Riverlands. In fact I'm willing to bet the majority of Rhaegar's forces at the Trident were from the Reach. As the Crownland is not large enough to raise much troops and I doubt Dorne was making up the majority of those forces.

You're correct here but I don't think there would have been a huge number of soldiers from the Reach. The Loyalist force was 40 000 men. 10 000 from Dorne. That leaves 30 000 men to be made up from Crownlands, loyal Riverland forces, and loyal Stormland forces.

The Crownlands can probably account for about half the remaining 30 000 while other loyalist make up another 5000. That would mean a decent estimate would be around 10 000 troops from the reach at the Battle of the Trident.

Numbers in battle are often miss reported in ASOIAF GRRM does this on purpose to reflect real history so it's hard to make a call but I think that 10 000 is a good estimate.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

a- I always felt Maces siege, and Tarly early victory is what prevented a proper Baratheon levy. After all battle of the Bells sounds like a battle were Robert has no army...

I highly doubt Robert ever got close to the 20-25k full potential army of Storm Landers and never got more than 10-15 on his side.

Without Mace siege Stannis could had compleated the levy and become a southener threat to KL.

b- Also perhaps Rhaegar was so sure of his "destiny" victory, that he felt it was better to present a not unbalanced army, were victory would be owed to the Tyrells.

[Fat Trell]

Oh come on, Stannis was making a point about his own heroics, he wasn't doing a history report.

With the Lannisters siting out, and the North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the Vale allied against the crown. The loyalist forces were the Crownlands, the Reach, and Dorne. That's it. Unless you think Rhaegar's forces were made of only Dornish and Crownland troops, there is no way the entire force of the Reach were with Mace. For one thing we know the Randyl Tarly was fighting in the Riverlands. In fact I'm willing to bet the majority of Rhaegar's forces at the Trident were from the Reach. As the Crownland is not large enough to raise much troops and I doubt Dorne was making up the majority of those forces.

Because Stannis is well known for his tendency to exaggerate.

The Riverlands, Stormlands, and the Vale had large numbers of loyalist houses.

Randyll Tarly was not in the Riverlands, where do you get that idea? Ashford is in the Reach.

The Crownlands can muster a decent number of troops. They include all the houses of the Narrow Sea, the lands surrounding KL, and Crackclaw Point.

Jon C is noted to have retreated in good order from the Battle of the Bells. Meaning most of his forces remained intact. This remainder was at the Trident.

The wiki states only several hundred Reach levies were at the Trident. I see no reason to disagree with this.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

They could have won at the Trident and still lost the war or the Northmen and Valemen could also mobilize more of their population. Stannis could have sacked King's Landing.

[Bob Sacamano]

Real question is, if Mace Tyrell was at the Trident, would Bob have been killed before he killed pretty boy, Rhaegar...I don't think so.

[Fire Eater]

Yes. He wasted his time at Storm's End when he should have focused on Robert.

As Cersei said, his sigil should be a fat man sitting on his arse. There were likely only a few hundred men at SE, and Mace needed only a force of a few thousand to besiege SE.

If Mace had arrived at with Rhaegar at the Trident with at least 40,000 men, then things might have gone differently. Rhaegar would have had more knights, including Randyll Tarly, who could command a vanguard. Rhaegar and Robert would have had more men in between them in the fighting.

If Mace had decided to pursue Robert after Ashford, he would have joined with Connington and searched Stoney Sept. The Battle of the Bells might have gone differently with more men available to search, and enough men to combat the Stark and Tully forces that arrived.

[Fat Trell]

As Cersei said, his sigil should be a fat man sitting on his arse. There were likely only a few hundred men at SE, and Mace needed only a force of a few thousand to besiege SE.

If Mace had arrived at with Rhaegar at the Trident with at least 40,000 men, then things might have gone differently. Rhaegar would have had more knights, including Randyll Tarly, who could command a vanguard. Rhaegar and Robert would have had more men in between them in the fighting.

If Mace had decided to pursue Robert after Ashford, he would have joined with Connington and searched Stoney Sept. The Battle of the Bells might have gone differently with more men available to search, and enough men to combat the Stark and Tully forces that arrived.

Which is all so obvious it points to Mace's actively hedging his bets between Rebels and Royalists.

[Nozlym]

If Mace had his army there, sure they could of defeated Rob and Ned. But i think it still depends on if Rhaegar still dies if Mace was there. Cus when Rhaegar died everyone stopped fighting, the same would have happened even if Mace was there. Because sure u could still keep fighting, but think about what ur fighting for after its all said and done. Some mad pyromaniac who everyone hates.

[paramount]

They could have won at the Trident and still lost the war or the Northmen and Valemen could also mobilize more of their population. Stannis could have sacked King's Landing.

Stannis couldn't have sacked Kings Landing since most of the naval forces in the war belonged to the Redwynes

[paramount]

Also the Stormlands could muster only 20 000 from what we learnt at Blackwater and that is is combined with Florent forces that numbered 2000.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

Basically the reason why Rheagar lost the Trident is because of Mace Tyrell. Why on earth would anyone believed that they were a threat for targaryan restoration I don't know.

[Fat Trell]

Basically the reason why Rheagar lost the Trident is because of Mace Tyrell. Why on earth would anyone believed that they were a threat for targaryan restoration I don't know.

Rhaegar lost on the Trident due to his own mistakes and short-comings.

[chrisdaw]

Rhaegar was soft and Robert was beast, Mace of all people wouldn't have changed this fact.

[Fire Eater]

Rhaegar was soft and Robert was beast, Mace of all people wouldn't have changed this fact.

I think that is a shallow mischaracterizarion as Rhaegar wasn't described as weak, but by all accounts, a good warrior. Rhaegar seriously wounded Robert to the point that Robert couldn't ride to Kl but had to give someone else command. Rhaegar also managed to knock Robert off his horse in their fight. If Rhaegar had not decided to dismount, he could have killed Robert.

Being defeated doesn't make someone a bad warrior. There is always someone better.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

I think that is a shallow mischaracterizarion as Rhaegar wasn't described as weak, but by all accounts, a good warrior. Rhaegar seriously wounded Robert to the point that Robert couldn't ride to Kl but had to give someone else command. Rhaegar also managed to knock Robert off his horse in their fight. If Rhaegar had not decided to dismount, he could have killed Robert.

Being defeated doesn't make someone a bad warrior. There is always someone better.

:agree: