Timey Wimey: Bran's True Power from a Hole in the Ground

[BastardlyRock]

While many believe Bran will be used as a POV from which many of the secrets/theories of the series can be revealed, does he have any more considerable influence from his current location other than "timeless-observatory-power-convenience" for GRRM?

We know from very early on that Bran can warg, but as the series continues we also find that (to somewhat lesser extents) so can Arya and Jon (among others). So Bran is also a greenseer, which is all well and good, but is this power really more or less what the name implies, and is limited to merely seeing? Does Bran have any influence through the Weirwood trees to change/create past events? Does/did Bloodraven have any great influence through his abilities?

Knowing that through Bran's power he can see all things past present and future, do you feel we'll come to find that Bran and/or Bloodraven are capable of affecting events that have already happened, possibly to the extent that they've already been responsible for events that have changed the face of Planetos (such as Bran playing a significant role in the building of the Wall through Brandon the Builder, or swaying forces during the Battle for the Dawn?)

At a minimum I guess I'm asking what power Bran will actually have to do anything, rather than simply observe things. Thoughts?? This question has been driving me a little crazy... (I'll be up front as well, Bran's chapters have long been some of my favorite.)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Bran may watch other times (very symbolic and difficult to interpret in case of the future), but he can only affect the present.

Nevertheless, there is a lot of Old Gods related magic beyond simple warging Bran may tap into. Whether it's the Hammer of the Waters, the warding spells in Storms End, Winterfell, the Wall and in the cave or whatever Joramun did, Bran could probably learn it. And those are only examples mentioned in the books, unlikely to be a full list.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Let me start by saying I'm not sure about being able to actually change or interact with events from the past and future directly. Even if this is the case and his powers entail merely observation of past and future events without being able to interact in them, he can still communicate with people of the present through weirwood trees and let them know what he knows.

Having knowledge of things other people are not aware of and knowing the outcomes of events is very powerful in its own right, as he can affect the future from the present. He can change the outcomes of important current events. The way in which he communicates may even help bestow more influence than a child of his age would normally have as the mystical elements may imbue more authority to those he speaks to thus gaining more influence. I think you're selling the power kind of short.

[BastardlyRock]

Let me start by saying I'm not sure about being able to actually change or interact with events from the past and future directly. Even if this is the case and his powers entail merely observation of past and future events without being able to interact in them, he can still communicate with people of the present through weirwood trees and let them know what he knows.

Having knowledge of things other people are not aware of and knowing the outcomes of events is very powerful in its own right, as he can affect the future from the present. He can change the outcomes of important current events. The way in which he communicates may even help bestow more influence than a child of his age would normally have as the mystical elements may imbue more authority to those he speaks to thus gaining more influence. I think you're selling the power kind of short.

I definitely don't mean to sell the power short, I promise. I agree with you on all points, I'm just trying to speculate how he may be able to use such gained knowledge. How does he affect the future from the present? People hearing Bran's voice through the Weirwood is definitely a possibility, but I imagine this would come across as, IDK, a little hokey? Showing them images? Also a possibility.... As far as I can tell Bran's destined to spend his days in the cave with BR -- will he send Jojen and/or Meera back out with the gained knowledge to somehow influence events? Or does he have some physical capacity to communicate otherwise? What has BR been up to? Do we have knowledge of him already having played a significant role since he took up his current residence? Again, I apologize for the abundance of questions, but the concept has been on my mind all day!

[Onna Lewyys]

Personally, I always subscribe to a closed loop system of time travel, because the alternative is just too messy. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Bran wouldn't be able to affect the past; he could, as long as that's what he always did (in the words of Lost, "Whatever happened, happened"). I've always found it interesting that Jon saw Bran bonded to a weirwood in his dream in ACOK, way before Bran actually bonded to the tree in ADWD. I think Bran was reaching into the past at that point.

As far as his powers in the present are concerned, Jon's dream might suggest that Bran could influence people through their dreams, leading them to take certain actions. Also, he can control animals, particularly ravens

(see Theon's leaked TWOW chapter)

which means he could possibly manipulate communication through ravens, either by rerouting their messages or by using them to impart the knowledge he has learned through the weirnet.

[Skoboe]

Even if he could observe everything and learn all the secrets - what good will it do without a means to get that message to whoever needs it?

BR has been a Greenseer for decades, yet could only drop cryptic messages to Bran is his dreams. As far as I can tell there are no crows where he is to carry messages, and with the hill surrounded by dead things pony express is off the agenda.

I think for that reason, he won't be immobilised the same way BR is until after the current events come to a close...he will need to travel south again after he learns what he can.

[A Man Has Said]

I seem to recall Jojen explaining to Bran that the reason he was special was that he was both a skinchanger AND a greendreamer like Jojen himself.

Since the warging ability occurs in only 1 in 1,000 people in the north (meaning perhaps 1 in 10,000 in Westeros overall) and greendreamers are similarly rare, what Bran is is a 1 in 10,000,000 or even 1 in 100,000,000 long shot.

As I've commented before, I think the last Bran chapter in ADwD showed why its as important as it is rare; people like Bran can skinchange in Weirwood Trees! And since weirwood trees are all connected magically to each other, and timeless, this is going to give Bran the ability to observe events all over the North, and in a few places where weirwoods (and even weirwood stumps like at High Heart) still exist in the south. And I would suspect that he'll be able to more than observe - his consciousness will also be able to jump out from any weirwood into convenient receiver animals in the vicinity. At first this will probably be confined to the magical animals like direwolves and ravens, but I'd expect Bran is going to be doing things fairly quickly that even Bloodraven never suspected were possible. I think it's heavily foreshadowed.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Bran may watch other times (very symbolic and difficult to interpret in case of the future), but he can only affect the present.

Nevertheless, there is a lot of Old Gods related magic beyond simple warging Bran may tap into. Whether it's the Hammer of the Waters, the warding spells in Storms End, Winterfell, the Wall and in the cave or whatever Joramun did, Bran could probably learn it. And those are only examples mentioned in the books, unlikely to be a full list.

This. Though I think he won't be able to change past events, I'm pretty confident he will have powers beyond just seeing. Probably more powerful skinchanging. Maybe controlling the weather/natural forces.

Also, if he can communicate with people outside the cave, spying (and spying the past too!) is not such a weak power.

[Onna Lewyys]

I think for that reason, he won't be immobilised the same way BR is until after the current events come to a close...he will need to travel south again after he learns what he can.

It took him two books just to get from Winterfell to the cave, and there's only two books left. I don't see how there's time for him to go anywhere. And he's already communicating with Jon and Theon in the north (which is where the important stuff is happening anyway), so I think he's fine where he is.

At first this will probably be confined to the magical animals like direwolves and ravens, but I'd expect Bran is going to be doing things fairly quickly that even Bloodraven never suspected were possible. I think it's heavily foreshadowed.

I agree with you. I think Bran's abilities are going to develop quickly, whether because of something inherent in him or just because magic has become stronger in the world in general.

[Good Guy Garlan]

We've already seen him affect the past (albeit in a very small way), when he said "Father" and Ned looked up. And the present too, if we believe he was the one who whispered Theon's name.

And some people think he or Bloodraven are warging

the ravens in Theon's WoW chapter

[BastardlyRock]

We've already seen him affect the past (albeit in a very small way), when he said "Father" and Ned looked up. And the present too, if we believe he was the one who whispered Theon's name.

And some people think he or Bloodraven are warging

the ravens in Theon's WoW chapter

Very good points! Thank you for reminding me, I can't believe I spaced those. I suppose it's just some twisted little demon in me that wants to see something more tangible, along the lines of the Old Gods related magic that Bright Blue Eyes brought up.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Very good points! Thank you for reminding me, I can't believe I spaced those. I suppose it's just some twisted little demon in me that wants to see something more tangible, along the lines of the Old Gods related magic that Bright Blue Eyes brought up.

Yeah, I guess we'll see something along those lines too. I don't think it's a coincidence that the last thing Bran sees through the weirwood (right before ending his last aDwD chapter) is a woman sacrificing some dude in front of a heart tree. Maybe Bloodraven wanted him to see that especifically to prepare him for some darker stuff, whether it is the Jojen paste theory or the one of Theon being sacrificed in front of a tree (although if it's the latter I'll throw my damn books to the fire)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Personally, I always subscribe to a closed loop system of time travel, because the alternative is just too messy. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Bran wouldn't be able to affect the past; he could, as long as that's what he always did (in the words of Lost, "Whatever happened, happened"). I've always found it interesting that Jon saw Bran bonded to a weirwood in his dream in ACOK, way before Bran actually bonded to the tree in ADWD. I think Bran was reaching into the past at that point.

As far as his powers in the present are concerned, Jon's dream might suggest that Bran could influence people through their dreams, leading them to take certain actions. Also, he can control animals, particularly ravens

(see Theon's leaked TWOW chapter)

which means he could possibly manipulate communication through ravens, either by rerouting their messages or by using them to impart the knowledge he has learned through the weirnet.

Bran is in WInterfell, with it's weriwood.

Even if he could observe everything and learn all the secrets - what good will it do without a means to get that message to whoever needs it?

BR has been a Greenseer for decades, yet could only drop cryptic messages to Bran is his dreams. As far as I can tell there are no crows where he is to carry messages, and with the hill surrounded by dead things pony express is off the agenda.

I think for that reason, he won't be immobilised the same way BR is until after the current events come to a close...he will need to travel south again after he learns what he can.

There are a lot of ravens there, the really good kind. Furthermore, Bran can talk to his siblings. Or at least Summer can.

I seem to recall Jojen explaining to Bran that the reason he was special was that he was both a skinchanger AND a greendreamer like Jojen himself.

Since the warging ability occurs in only 1 in 1,000 people in the north (meaning perhaps 1 in 10,000 in Westeros overall) and greendreamers are similarly rare, what Bran is is a 1 in 10,000,000 or even 1 in 100,000,000 long shot.

As I've commented before, I think the last Bran chapter in ADwD showed why its as important as it is rare; people like Bran can skinchange in Weirwood Trees! And since weirwood trees are all connected magically to each other, and timeless, this is going to give Bran the ability to observe events all over the North, and in a few places where weirwoods (and even weirwood stumps like at High Heart) still exist in the south. And I would suspect that he'll be able to more than observe - his consciousness will also be able to jump out from any weirwood into convenient receiver animals in the vicinity. At first this will probably be confined to the magical animals like direwolves and ravens, but I'd expect Bran is going to be doing things fairly quickly that even Bloodraven never suspected were possible. I think it's heavily foreshadowed.

Only wargs can be greenseers, they are naturally linked.

We've already seen him affect the past (albeit in a very small way), when he said "Father" and Ned looked up. And the present too, if we believe he was the one who whispered Theon's name.

And some people think he or Bloodraven are warging

the ravens in Theon's WoW chapter

That's most likely coincidence.

[Onna Lewyys]

Bran is in WInterfell, with it's weriwood.

But at the time Jon had that dream, Bran was in the Winterfell crypts. He wasn't yet seeing through the Winterfell weirwood. And the weirwood in Jon's dream wasn't the Winterfell weirwood anyway.

It makes sense to me that the Bran that Jon saw in his dream was a post-ADWD Bran.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But at the time Jon had that dream, Bran was in the Winterfell crypts. He wasn't yet seeing through the Winterfell weirwood. And the weirwood in Jon's dream wasn't the Winterfell weirwood anyway.

It makes sense to me that the Bran that Jon saw in his dream was a post-ADWD Bran.

The roots of the Winterfell weirwood envelop the Winterfell crypts as much as the roots in BR's cave do. Furthermore, Jon wasn't seeing this weirwood either, he saw the weirwood physically present where he himself was.

Finally, Bran does remember that vision as well - after he leaves the crypts of Winterfell.

[Onna Lewyys]

Finally, Bran does remember that vision as well - after he leaves the crypts of Winterfell.

Oh you're right, I forgot that bit. So you're saying that Bran unconsciously connected to the weirnet in his sleep through the Winterfell weirwood's roots underneath the crypts?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Basically. Maybe not entirely unconsciously though.

[Batbob45]

Patchface knows the future and is really a Time lord.

[BastardlyRock]

Patchface knows the future and is really a Time lord.

Hahahaha, literally just lol'd, then stopped immediately, because I realized it was true :O

[xpozed]

Prodigy children doesn;t seem like GRRM's style. I think it would suck if a child that only recently discovered his powers and cand barely control the will be able to do the same things (or more) that someone/something that was at this for a few decades.

I think the way Bran handles his poweres ( writing wise) will be heavily decided by Bloodraven's motives.Does he do all of what he does becouse he is bored,does he have a higher purpose(and how did he come to it), does he have a god complex or is he serving some sort of god?

I belive a dynamic duo is more likely where Bran gains powers but only as much as Bloodraven allows him.You don;t let the work af a few decades in the hands of a child who never proved to be able to grasp the complexity of a whole world unless you have a way to control him.

Related to his powers i think changing past events means opening a can of worms.Being able to see and warg all over Westeros already seems very close to being godlike.He may also have acces to the magical abilities of the COTF but this very much seems to lead to a deus ex machina situation.Again, it doesn't seem like GRRM's style.Either there will be a double edged sword type of deal to all his poweres or thy will be very limited so that the manipulation of events will be done in precise yet subversive ways

Just my oppinion.