Could Robb Stark have declined KoTN title?

[Barty]

Well, sure. If you think that Cat kept that information to herself and that Robb's to stupid to figure out somethings afoot when Jon Arryn, Robert and Ned are all killed off and words being spread that Joff, Myrc and Tom are bastards born of incest.

How's Robb to know Robert was murdered??

And it makes perfect sense for Catelyn to not tell Robb the truth - she wanted Robb to make peace and bend the knee(she pleaded him to do exactly that when he came back from the west) but if Robb joins Stannis then peace is off the table - Stannis will never bend the knee.

Also Stannis threatens Robb when he meets Catelyn - further incentive to make sure Robb doesnt bend the knee to Stannis. We all know Stannis does not forgive past crimes - look at poor Ser Davos.

Stannis's tale(though true) was very convenient.

[jon stark I]

No he couldn't refuse.First of all that declaration made it clear that Northerners want nothing to do with IT anymore.Also if Robb didn't want to they could have easily find someone else or it could have caused a civil war aong them.Only thing Robb could have done would be to say that after we win this war we won't have to deal with Lannisters anymore.

[The Marquis de Leech]

If Robb had come out and said at the start that he was favouring Renly (or Stannis), he would have pre-empted the Greatjon's acclamation. Could he have turned the crown down once the acclamation had been made? Yes, but it would have required (1) shouting, and (2) pointing out that it is unworkable in the long-term. Making it clear to his lords that there is going to be no point putting on a crown only to have it knocked off again, wouldn't I think be interpreted as weakness, but rather prudence.

[Barty]

The Riverlands is indefensible, and Balon (correctly) judged that the repercussions of fighting Tywin Lannister are nastier than the repercussions of attacking an undefended North. Balon shouldn't have crowned himself, but allying with Robb would have been suicidal: the North has no ships.

Ultimately, you end up with a victor in King's Landing. Once that happens, that victor is not going to want a divided realm.

These are the 7 kingdoms - they have been divided for a much longer time than they have been united. Give the realm a few more years of multiple Kings and no power(except dragons) will ever bring them back again.

Had Robb's plan succeeded Tywin and Stannis would have been at each other's throat and both would have had nearly equal power.

I dont see a strong victor emerging from this conflict.

Had the war dragged on a few more years with the North, Vale and Iron Islands independent and the Lannisters and Baratheons killing each other all over the place, Dorne and the Reach might very well have decided to be free as well. Neither of them has any love for either side.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Let's backtrack a bit - are you talking about Stannis in the aftermath of the shadowbaby assassination? In that case, and assuming everything had gone to plan in terms of holding up Tywin, Stannis would be the one on the Iron Throne, and the Lannisters would be in no position to fight anyone. Meanwhile, Balon would be attacking the North anyway.

[Stormland's Fury]

No he couldn't, the Greatjon was on a roll!

Glover: [to Greatjon] Let it go. War's over, man. Joffrey dropped the big one.

Greatjon: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Dornish bombed Harrenhal? Hell no!

Karstark: [to Bolton] Dornish?

Bolton: Forget it, he's rolling.

Greatjon: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...

[thinks hard of something to say]

Greatjon: The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!

[Greatjon runs out, alone; then returns]

Greatjon: What the fuck happened to the North I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Greatjon, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Joffrey, he's a dead man! Cersei, dead! Tywin...

Karstark: Dead! Greatjon's right.

[Barty]

Let's backtrack a bit - are you talking about Stannis in the aftermath of the shadowbaby assassination? In that case, and assuming everything had gone to plan in terms of holding up Tywin, Stannis would be the one on the Iron Throne, and the Lannisters would be in no position to fight anyone. Meanwhile, Balon would be attacking the North anyway.

Why wouldnt the Lannisters not be in a position to fight anyone?? Robb's plan was to avoid Tywin long enough for Stannis to take KL and then sign a peace treaty(not an alliance) with him. These are his own words. This means Tywin is sitting at CR with 20k men and probably raising more and Stannis is sitting at KL with 20k men and probably raising more. Neither is going to bend to the other. While Robb sits at RR with 30k men(or he goes home to get rid of the IB - leaving the riverlords to rebuild under the reliable leadership of the BF).

[jon stark I]

Why wouldnt the Lannisters not be in a position to fight anyone?? Robb's plan was to avoid Tywin long enough for Stannis to take KL and then sign a peace treaty(not an alliance) with him. These are his own words. This means Tywin is sitting at CR with 20k men and probably raising more and Stannis is sitting at KL with 20k men and probably raising more. Neither is going to bend to the other. While Robb sits at RR with 30k men(or he goes home to get rid of the IB - leaving the riverlords to rebuild under the reliable leadership of the BF).

Losing KL is enough and whoever holds the KL wins the support of other regions and if Lannisters lost Kl and throne to Stannis Dorne would follow Stannis to fight Lannisters immideatly.

[The Fourth Head]

I'm not convinced Robb Stark being crowned was such a mistake. A king can bend the knee.

Had he not crowned himself, he and his bannermen would never have sworn allegiance to Joffrey (Ned's killer)- turn tail, and run back to Winterfell. Karstark for one would not have it. Nor would Umber. Nor would Robb. He would have looked very vulnerable and at that stage, things were going very well. It would have seemed overly prudent, weak and cowardly and very dishonourable to bend the knee to his father's killer.

After Stannis and Renly were out of the picture, what changes? With a crown on Robb's head or not, how likely was it that he would have bent the knee to Joffrey- Ned's killer? How likely was it that Tywin would have allowed Robb to withdraw without bending the knee? I'm not convinced anything would change. Without swearing fealty to Joffrey, Tywin would still be looking to do a rains of castamere on the army that kidnapped Tyrion marched on the crown and refused to acknowlegde their authority, and instill someone less likely to attack him in future as a sworn loyal Warden of the North. Robb would have been very vulnerable, from both Tywin and his own bannermen from a RW / betrayal job.

So the only thing that can change is how cooperation with Renly or Stannis would have played out.

So lets assume he refused the crown and declares for Renly. He was already seeking a cooperation with Renly, and it's unclear whether, crown or not- they could not have cooperated at least temporarily- but there simply was not enough time to take KL.

Would he have marched his army down to join Renly in the Reach? His army would have arrived, and Stannis would have still attacked Storms End. Renly would still have been distracted and the Shadowbaby (IMO, the biggest misfortune for Robb ever) would still have happened.

So in a tortuous stretch of feasibility, lets say Robb, having refused the Northern Crown, having declared for Renly, and having hurried off to Storms End, then declares for Stannis- and his men go along with it. Would the Tyrells? Loras has just lost his lover, Margary her husband, so no.

So we have Stannis and the Stormlords, and the remains of Robbs army, marching on KL, and getting attacked in the rear by the Reach and the Westerlands.

As Tywins' army is bigger than Robb's, the Reach's army is vastly bigger than the Stormlands, and they had the element of surprise, Robb and Stannis would have been defeated, even, IMO, with the Riverlords thrown in and with Roose Bolton and Walder Frey's unswerving loyalty.

And we are back to square one. With Stormlords bending like crazy, Robb, I assume would have tried fleeing for home, unable to bend the knee to his father's killer for the sake of honour.

Another variable in this is the mistaken assumption that the Vale would support Robb, or that the Vale/other kingdoms would ever unite to destroy an independent North. It was not Robb's failing to bring the Vale to his cause- that ship had sailed the moment Lysa's tears fell in Jon Arryn's wine cup.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Why wouldnt the Lannisters not be in a position to fight anyone?? Robb's plan was to avoid Tywin long enough for Stannis to take KL and then sign a peace treaty(not an alliance) with him. These are his own words. This means Tywin is sitting at CR with 20k men and probably raising more and Stannis is sitting at KL with 20k men and probably raising more. Neither is going to bend to the other. While Robb sits at RR with 30k men(or he goes home to get rid of the IB - leaving the riverlords to rebuild under the reliable leadership of the BF).

If King's Landing falls, Tywin is finished. What is he fighting for at that point? There's no longer a King for him to support: Joffrey and Tommen are dead, as are Cersei and Tyrion. Jaime is captive, and Myrcella is in Dorne. His lords will be begging him to come to terms, and he's lost all the prestige that comes with being the official regime.

In short, Stannis would be supreme, and in no mood for Northern separatism.

[Barty]

Losing KL is enough and whoever holds the KL wins the support of other regions and if Lannisters lost Kl and throne to Stannis Dorne would follow Stannis to fight Lannisters immideatly.

Doran wont set foot outside Dorne. He didnt send Dornish soldiers to fight Lannisters when Renly had mustered 100k men against them and Robb was beating the shit out of them, why would he now??

Either way Tywin is not likely to give up easily and he still has a sizeable army.

Even if the rest of the south supports Stannis, he has to take CR - something that has never happened in the history of westeros. Even if he defeats the Lannisters after years of conflict he will now be too weak to take on a combined North and Riverlands(who have probably healed a lot during this time of peace).

Infact If I was in Robb's shoes I'd take my (newly built)navy and assail KL as soon as Stannis finishes defeating the Lannisters, kill Stannis and his entire family, thereby plunging the south into another civil war.

[Lee-Sensei]

Doran wont set foot outside Dorne. He didnt send Dornish soldiers to fight Lannisters when Renly had mustered 100k men against them and Robb was beating the shit out of them, why would he now??

Either way Tywin is not likely to give up easily and he still has a sizeable army.

Even if the rest of the south supports Stannis, he has to take CR - something that has never happened in the history of westeros. Even if he defeats the Lannisters after years of conflict he will now be too weak to take on a combined North and Riverlands(who have probably healed a lot during this time of peace).

Infact If I was in Robb's shoes I'd take my (newly built)navy and assail KL as soon as Stannis finishes defeating the Lannisters, kill Stannis and his entire family, thereby plunging the south into another civil war.

What would the IB doing at this point?

[Barty]

If King's Landing falls, Tywin is finished. What is he fighting for at that point? There's no longer a King for him to support: Joffrey and Tommen are dead, as are Cersei and Tyrion. Jaime is captive, and Myrcella is in Dorne. His lords will be begging him to come to terms, and he's lost all the prestige that comes with being the official regime.

In short, Stannis would be supreme, and in no mood for Northern separatism.

IMO Tywin wont bend the knee to the man who just murdered his son, daughter and grandchildren, if nothing else he'd fight for independence and try to gain the support of other houses. Neither would Stannis allow Tywin to remain alive and powerful under his rule - he knows Tywin is too dangerous to let live.

The other point of course being that taking KL still means Tommen lives since he is at Castle Rosby(though Robb couldnt possibly have known that and he was hoping Tywin and Stannis would keep fighting despite the death of the royal family).

[Barty]

What would the IB doing at this point?

Dunno... why should they be doing anything different?? Does something happen that prevents Euron from returning and attacking the reach??

[Barty]

Anyways I feel like I've derailed the topic enough. Thank you all for indulging in my "If Robb's plan had worked" fantasy. :cheers:

[Lee-Sensei]

Dunno... why should they be doing anything different?? Does something happen that prevents Euron from returning and attacking the reach??

In this scenario Theon doesn't die? In story, Euron waited for Theon to "die" to make his move and kill off Balon. The IB would still be enemies of the North under Balon.

[Barty]

In this scenario Theon doesn't die? In story, Euron waited for Theon to "die" to make his move and kill off Balon. The IB would still be enemies of the North under Balon.

Why wouldnt Theon die?? Either Rodrik takes WF and kills Theon or Robb comes North and kills Theon or Ramsay does what he does. Theon was screwed the moment he took WF and stayed.

[Lee-Sensei]

Why wouldnt Theon die?? Either Rodrik takes WF and kills Theon or Robb comes North and kills Theon or Ramsay does what he does. Theon was screwed the moment he took WF and stayed.

Ok. So WF still falls and somehow Robb avoided the RW?

[Barty]

Ok. So WF still falls and somehow Robb avoided the RW?

If KL falls, the RW would never have taken place. WF needs the backing of Tywin and at this point Tywin wants the North to be strong and united - they have a common enemy in Stannis. If Robb dies the Northerners might very well decide to fall in with Stannis - Tywin will be looking to avoid that at all costs.

[Stormland's Fury]

If KL falls, the RW would never have taken place. WF needs the backing of Tywin and at this point Tywin wants the North to be strong and united - they have a common enemy in Stannis. If Robb dies the Northerners might very well decide to fall in with Stannis - Tywin will be looking to avoid that at all costs.

There's no way the Lannisters and Starks will make peace at that point. Even if one side wanted the other one would decline.

And Robb and Stannis would easily ally if necessary. All Stannis has to do is execute Joffrey for Ned's murder (which he said he intends to do) and give Sansa back. The Tullys still have Jaime, so Tywin is not in a very good position to negotiate.