Could Robb Stark have declined KoTN title?

[finnegan_stark]

Forgive me if this has been beaten to death already; I'm relatively new (both to ASOIAF & the Forum) and tried Search function to no avail.

I've read several arguments that one of Robb Stark's bigger mistakes was taking a crown as King in the North; he should have bent the knee as a faithful servant to {Stannis, Renly, Joffrey, Dany} the rightful heir to the Iron Throne after his father's death. What has bugged me is that he didn't wake up one day and crown himself: his own vassals, starting w/ Greatjon, argue for splitting with King's Landing/IT and pledging fealty to him as KoTN.

Given the circumstances, could Robb have actually refused to become King? What would have been the implications? I think he loses his bannerman/army and Bolton betrays/mutinies even sooner, but I sense I could be totally wrong.

[Lord Lyman]

I don't think he could have refused.

He is only 14/15 when this happens and is the liege lord to the North men. He is a boy of summer and they are going to challenge him and put him to the test to make sure he is capable and competent. To refuse would have failed that challenge, and would have cost him a lot of support both during then after the war.

[Lee-Sensei]

Ned would have. It would have been the right thing to do.

[The_Leech_Lord]

He would have looked pretty silly. Imagine everyone going "King in the North! King of Winter!" and Robb would have been like, "Seriously, guys, cut it out, it's not funny" :rofl:

[Lee-Sensei]

^He would have looked like an honorable guy.

[Barty]

^He would have looked like an honorable guy.

Are you saying he wasnt honorable when he accepted the title?? What else was he going to do?? Was bending the knee to a Lannister honorable?? Was bending the knee to a man(Renly or Stannis) he thought had no claim to the throne honorable??

He did the most honorable thing he could when faced with such a choice.

Also @ OP its KiTN , not KoTN

[Black Wolf Smith]

No, not at the point he was made KoTN he could only excepted it. His head was already on the chopping block, his men were unsure of his leadership, and his father was dead. Some of his men would have support Stannis's claim, some might have supported Remy's claim, some would have likely wanted to stay true to Joffery, but the only way to lead all his men (and protect the Stark family) was to become King.

His biggest mistake was not doing what he said he wanted. He should have sure up the Riverlands, gotten his aunt in the Vale on his side, and let the others fight for KL, while he only protected his kingdoms from others.

[Lee-Sensei]

Are you saying he wasnt honorable when he accepted the title?? What else was he going to do?? Was bending the knee to a Lannister honorable?? Was bending the knee to a man(Renly or Stannis) he thought had no claim to the throne honorable??

He did the most honorable thing he could when faced with such a choice.

Also @ OP its KiTN , not KoTN

Bran can’t be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can’t be king before Lord Stannis.”

Lady Mormont agreed. “Lord Stannis has the better claim.”

“Renly is crowned,” said Marq Piper. “Highgarden and Storm’s End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?”

“The right,” said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

Robb seems to disagree with you.

No, not at the point he was made KoTN he could only excepted it. His head was already on the chopping block, his men were unsure of his leadership, and his father was dead. Some of his men would have support Stannis's claim, some might have supported Remy's claim, some would have likely wanted to stay true to Joffery, but the only way to lead all his men (and protect the Stark family) was to become King.

I doubt any of them wanted to support Joffrey.

[SkaggCannibal]

He should have said that he would think about it, not just go along with the most impulsive, rash and stupid part of his commanders. It is presented as Robb deciding it in a moment. He should have lifted his hand, say I will talk this through with my advisors and then Cat could tell him what a stupid idea it was. The status of the Riverlands could've been thought through and maybe Roose and that part of his army could've had a say in it. Instead he listened to the GreatJon (best advisor eva) and made it look like it wasn't his decision at all. Well he's the freaking King, it is 90% his decision and there are other ways of motivating your army to keep fighting for you.

So yes, he could've refused.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He could have declined, yes.

But a part of his men could have seen that as an insult or a sign of weakness. It's like accepting with a sword on your back.

[Barty]

Bran can’t be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can’t be king before Lord Stannis.”

Lady Mormont agreed. “Lord Stannis has the better claim.”

“Renly is crowned,” said Marq Piper. “Highgarden and Storm’s End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?”

“The right,” said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

Robb seems to disagree with you.

I doubt any of them wanted to support Joffrey.

Robb was comparing Stannis to Renly when he says that(as in Stannis has the better claim when compared to Renly, not the best claim of all). It still does not make Stannis King.

If you read that entire conversation Robb also says that Joffrey is the rightful King and that Tommen is King after Joffrey.

Stannis might have a better claim than Renly but in Robb's eyes he was not the rightful King.

[Lee-Sensei]

Robb was comparing Stannis to Renly when he says that(as in Stannis has the better claim when compared to Renly, not the best claim of all). It still does not make Stannis King.

If you read that entire conversation Robb also says that Joffrey is the rightful King and that Tommen is King after Joffrey.

Stannis might have a better claim than Renly but in Robb's eyes he was not the rightful King.

Either way, taking up a crown was treason (much like Balon Greyjoy). And when he found out that Stannis was King he didn't set it aside.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Politically, the smartest thing would have been to declare for Renly as soon as possible (perhaps encourage a joint attack on King's Landing, which means no shadowbabies). That's the best guarantee of Cersei Lannister's head on a spike, and perhaps getting other bits and pieces (compensation, upgrade to Prince of the North, a la Dorne, and so on).

The North cannot militarily achieve independence against a united South, so if he accepted the crown, taking it off again should have been seen as a bargaining chip.

[Barty]

Either way, taking up a crown was treason (much like Balon Greyjoy). And when he found out that Stannis was King he didn't set it aside.

when did he find out Stannis was king btw?? Jaime told Catelyn the truth but despite having her POV we never see her telling Robb this.(Though I could be mistaken)

[Lee-Sensei]

when did he find out Stannis was king btw?? Jaime told Catelyn the truth but despite having her POV we never see her telling Robb this.(Though I could be mistaken)

Well, sure. If you think that Cat kept that information to herself and that Robb's to stupid to figure out somethings afoot when Jon Arryn, Robert and Ned are all killed off and words being spread that Joff, Myrc and Tom are bastards born of incest.

[Barty]

Politically, the smartest thing would have been to declare for Renly as soon as possible (perhaps encourage a joint attack on King's Landing, which means no shadowbabies). That's the best guarantee of Cersei Lannister's head on a spike, and perhaps getting other bits and pieces (compensation, upgrade to Prince of the North, a la Dorne, and so on).

The North cannot militarily achieve independence against a united South, so if he accepted the crown, taking it off again should have been seen as a bargaining chip.

But Robb wasnt counting on a unified south - He already had the riverlands with him and logically Balon should have declared independence as well. Robb was also planning on bringing the Vale to his side(though probably not under his rule but rather as an independent ally).

And look at his plan - he was trying to make sure the south remained divided(by luring the bulk of Lannister strength to the west and then signing a peace with them when Stannis takes KL) thus leaving Stannis and Tywin free to bleed each other as much as possible.

It took a ridiculous amount of bad luck and some very poor decisions by Robb himself to turn this into a bad idea.

[Lee-Sensei]

But Robb wasnt counting on a unified south - He already had the riverlands with him and logically Balon should have declared independence as well. Robb was also planning on bringing the Vale to his side(though probably not under his rule but rather as an independent ally).

And look at his plan - he was trying to make sure the south remained divided(by luring the bulk of Lannister strength to the west and then signing a peace with them when Stannis takes KL) thus leaving Stannis and Tywin free to bleed each other as much as possible.

It took a ridiculous amount of bad luck and some very poor decisions by Robb himself to turn this into a bad idea.

Declaring independence with the Riverlands was already a bad idea. The North by itself stood a chance of holding out if they fortified the neck, but the Riverlands was a liability during war time because it was completely open for attack meaning Robb and his bannermen would have to come down to help them.

[Lummel]

The acclamation of Robb as king is a parallel to the sack of Astapor by Daenerys. On the first read these both come across as fist pump moments, but on the reread, with some reflection they are tragic moments and impossible for the the person apparently in control to have got out of.

What happens if Robb refuses - he looks like a weakling, a coward and a boy in the eyes of the people who are providing him with his army.

Equally at this point in time why should Robb doubt the possibility of establishing a kingdom of the north and the riverlands? This is the high tide moment of his cause, he's captured the Kingslayer, defeated a substantial Lannister army achieved a victory that has filled his bannermen and himself with enormous confidence and self belief. This is the moment when everything seems possible.

[Donnelly]

Robb could have said "I won't say which of you I will support until the Lannisters are off the Iron throne". If Renly had attacked the Westerlands while Robb was keeping tywin busy in the riverlands then the Lannisters would have had a very difficult time, especially with Stannis presumably still threatening kings landing.

Robb could have put off dealing with the moral choice and at the same time finished off his main enemies. If stannis later killed renly with magic then that would make the decision even easier, and there would be no major threat left to stannis in the seven kingdoms. The Greyjoy invasion and any bolton rebelliousness would be dealt with much easier as without the lannisters there would be no one to support them in the red wedding.

Off course the books wouldn't be quite so interesting if everything had ended so neatly and so quickly

[The Marquis de Leech]

But Robb wasnt counting on a unified south - He already had the riverlands with him and logically Balon should have declared independence as well. Robb was also planning on bringing the Vale to his side(though probably not under his rule but rather as an independent ally).

And look at his plan - he was trying to make sure the south remained divided(by luring the bulk of Lannister strength to the west and then signing a peace with them when Stannis takes KL) thus leaving Stannis and Tywin free to bleed each other as much as possible.

It took a ridiculous amount of bad luck and some very poor decisions by Robb himself to turn this into a bad idea.

The Riverlands is indefensible, and Balon (correctly) judged that the repercussions of fighting Tywin Lannister are nastier than the repercussions of attacking an undefended North. Balon shouldn't have crowned himself, but allying with Robb would have been suicidal: the North has no ships.

Ultimately, you end up with a victor in King's Landing. Once that happens, that victor is not going to want a divided realm.