Could Robb Stark have declined KoTN title?

[Stormland's Fury]

Wasn't he fighting Tywin also on personal grounds? You know because he holds the Lannisters responsible for Ned's murder?

Catelyn: You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark.

Robb: Never.

Catelyn: There is no shame in it. Balon Greyjoy bent the knee to Robert when his rebellion failed. Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror rather than see his army face the fires.

Robb: Did Aegon kill King Torrhen’s father?

This says that he would be willing to bend the knee to anyone but a Lannister...

And then we have also the fact that he considered himself to declare for Stannis if needed (the uncertainty was why the Greatjon made the proclamation in the first place), Stannis has proof that Ned declared for him and the Lannisters are both their enemies politically as well as personally.

In the scenario Stannis takes KL (and Sansa).

Reasons why Robb declared himself king and /or is at war:

1) Lannisters killed Ned

2) The Lannisters keeping Sansa and Arya hostage

3) Uncertainty who to declare for

Things Stannis wants or can offer:

1) Justice for Ned's murder

2) Sansa

3) Sansa is one of the people who knows that Ned declared for Stannis in the first place.

Stannis also isn't really angry at Robb because even after Blackwater he's reluctant to throw his leech in the fire.

I'm not really sure why the Northerners and Riverlanders would be particular inclined to fight Stannis and vice versa. He wants to have stability after all and presumably have a Stark in Winterfell anyway.

[finnegan_stark]

People we are getting too much ahead,talking what he could have done after becoming KITN. He had no choice but to accept when his bannermen decided to secede. To paraphrase Robb Stark from a ACOK chapter "His bannermen made him king, they could as easily unmake him".

He simply had no choice but to accept. Period. End of Discussion. You cant antagonize your underlings in a feudal society,as Rickard Karstark and Walder Frey showed later on.

Thank you--the discussion I was looking for was definitely around just the decision of KiTN vs. everything that came after. I still think saying no or even "let us defer until a later date" is a politically bad move for a liege Lord whose leadership has already been challenged due to age/inexperience.

[finnegan_stark]

Ned would have refused. It would have been the right thing to do.

Ned also had years of being Lord of Winterfell and war veteran reputation on his side to refuse with possible mutiny/coup. Robb didn't.

[Stormland's Fury]

Where are they fighting? If Robb's plan works then he is not fighting anyone but rather watching from the sidelines as Stannis and Tywin duke it out.

And then they're are occupied fighting the Greyjoys and when that is over, sooner or later the South will come down on them with impunity.

[Stormland's Fury]

Ned also had years of being Lord of Winterfell and war veteran reputation on his side to refuse with possible mutiny/coup. Robb didn't.

That didn't stop the bannermen to follow Robb into a war though...

[Barty]

Wasn't he fighting Tywin also on personal grounds? You know because he holds the Lannisters responsible for Ned's murder?

Catelyn: You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark.

Robb: Never.

Catelyn: There is no shame in it. Balon Greyjoy bent the knee to Robert when his rebellion failed. Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror rather than see his army face the fires.

Robb: Did Aegon kill King Torrhen’s father?

This says that he would be willing to bend the knee to anyone but a Lannister...

And then we have also the fact that he considered himself to declare for Stannis if needed (the uncertainty was why the Greatjon made the proclamation in the first place), Stannis has proof that Ned declared for him and the Lannisters are both their enemies politically as well as personally.

In the scenario Stannis takes KL (and Sansa).

Reasons why Robb declared himself king and /or is at war:

1) Lannisters killed Ned

2) The Lannisters keeping Sansa and Arya hostage

3) Uncertainty who to declare for

Things Stannis want or can offer:

1) Justice for Ned's murder

2) Sansa

3) Sansa is one of the people who knows that Ned declared for Stannis in the first place.

Stannis also isn't really angry at Robb because even after Blackwater he's reluctant to throw his leech in the fire.

I'm not really sure why the Northerners and Riverlanders would be particular inclined to fight Stannis and vice versa. He wants to have stability after all and presumably have a Stark in Winterfell anyway.

True.

My scenario only happens If Robb is hell bent on remaining free. If not then he can very well bend the knee to Stannis and get his sister back(maybe also keep the title of KiTN - like the Dornishmen did with their Prince title).

I began posting in this thread to prove that had Robb been inclined he could have kept the North and riverlands free from IT control though it would have required some effort - and he had a good plan to make sure it happened.

I personally dislike the idea of Robb bending the knee to Stannis. Stannis was an entitled asshole in first 2 books and I find it difficult to forgive him that.

[Stormland's Fury]

I personally dislike the idea of Robb bending the knee to Stannis. Stannis was an entitled asshole in first 2 books and I find it difficult to forgive him that.

But Stannis' personalty should be no reason for Robb to prolong a war they could win. Stannis didn't like Ned personally but still respected him and wanted to bring his murderers to justice.

[Barty]

And then they're are occupied fighting the Greyjoys and when that is over, sooner or later the South will come down on them with impunity.

Why is anything changing with the GreyJoys?? They all leave as soon as Euron returns. Even if he doesnt Balon only attacked the North because it was undefended. It's one thing to attack a land which gains you nothing(gold, loot etc) but at least you dont loose many men attacking it and another to attack it and lose hundreds, if not thousands, of men, gain nothing and still refuse to stop.

[finnegan_stark]

That didn't stop the bannermen to follow Robb into a war though...

The Stark name is powerful in the North, yo. But even with that, Greatjon initially questioned Robb's leadership.

That war is as much about gaining independence as avenging the murder of their liege Lord and his kin (because at this point, everyone thinks Arya was murdered too).

[Stormland's Fury]

Why is anything changing with the GreyJoys?? They all leave as soon as Euron returns. Even if he doesnt Balon only attacked the North because it was undefended. It's one thing to attack a land which gains you nothing(gold, loot etc) but at least you dont loose many men attacking it and another to attack it and lose hundreds, if not thousands, of men, gain nothing and still refuse to stop.

Yes, but in your scenario the Northerners would actually have returned North to deal with them far before Euron even arrives on the scene. They still would fight them and the south could still be unified before Euron even appears.

[Stormland's Fury]

The Stark name is powerful in the North, yo. But even with that, Greatjon initially questioned Robb's leadership.

That war is as much about gaining independence as avenging the murder of their liege Lord and his kin (because at this point, everyone thinks Arya was murdered too).

And when Robb asserts his dominance they stand fully behind him (most of them) and in any case him refusing a peace offer would only be beneficial because several bannermen especially the Karstarks are pissed at the Lannisters either way (enough to kill their boys). If anything they accept refusal far better than an agreement.

EDIT: i thought this was about refusing peace with the Lannisters not refusing the actual crown.

[Lee-Sensei]

Ned also had years of being Lord of Winterfell and war veteran reputation on his side to refuse with possible mutiny/coup. Robb didn't.

Eh? I'm not convinced they'd stage a mutiny over their Lord refusing to crown himself.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Eh? I'm not convinced they'd stage a mutiny over their Lord refusing to crown himself.

Agreed (and who are they going to crown instead? Bran? Roose?). Robb has to argue pragmatically. He's not bending the knee to Joffrey, he's just pointing out that an independent Northern Kingdom won't last.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Ned would have refused. It would have been the right thing to do.

But Robb aint Ned, is he? Do you think Greatjon would have drawn his sword, like he did at winterfell, in Ned's presence? Hell No.

All Northern lords were testing Robb from the start, wanting this and that. No one would have dared to oppose any decision of Ned. Ned was a proven battle commander & Lord for 15 years. He had experience dealing with his vasals. Robb didnt. And Ned did Rebel against the Targs. As did Robb against Lannisters. Only difference. Ned had three LPs with him, Robb had one. Both situations are not comparable.

[Lee-Sensei]

But Robb aint Ned, is he? Do you think Greatjon would have drawn his sword, like he did at winterfell, in Ned's presence? Hell No.

All Northern lords were testing Robb from the start, wanting this and that. No one would have dared to oppose any decision of Ned. Ned was a proven battle commander & Lord for 15 years. He had experience dealing with his vasals. Robb didnt. And Ned did Rebel against the Targs. As did Robb against Lannisters. Only difference. Ned had three LPs with him, Robb had one. Both situations are not comparable.

No. Robb isn't Ned. Ned had more honor than that.

[ground_control]

Wasn't he fighting Tywin also on personal grounds? You know because he holds the Lannisters responsible for Ned's murder?

Catelyn: You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark.

Robb: Never.

Catelyn: There is no shame in it. Balon Greyjoy bent the knee to Robert when his rebellion failed. Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror rather than see his army face the fires.

Robb: Did Aegon kill King Torrhen’s father?

This says that he would be willing to bend the knee to anyone but a Lannister...

Actually, I think it's just Joff specifically to whom Robb would refuse to bend the knee, but I think Cersei or Tywin as Tommen's regent would probably be a deal breaker as well.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Eh? I'm not convinced they'd stage a mutiny over their Lord refusing to crown himself.

Really? Did you forget Karstark's statement after Greatjon speech "Aye I'll have peace on these terms". He wanted to murder Jaime on the spot, but was pacified when Greatjon proposed seceding. Terms being Secession from IT as an independent kingdom.

If Robb refuses Karstark,Umber either mutiny on the spot or march home, with all the heavy horses of the North. What happens then, Robb is stranded in riverlands with less then 3000 infantry soldiers. He is fucked. After that even Riverlords will start abandoning him. Who would support a Lord who cant keep his own vasals together? No One.

[TheCasualObserver]

The irony is that Robb's best long term strategy was to side with Stannis in the first place. If he had, then there would be no big discussion over what the Northmen should do and Greatjon never gets to make his King in the North speech. That Robb didn't do this was because Stannis looked like such a loser on the outset of the WOT5K. If Robb knew that Stannis' cause was just (read: twincest abound) then I'm fairly convinced he would have sided with him after the battle of the camps.

Stannis missed his big opportunity to get Robb on his side by waiting too long before declaring his claim. Even if Robb doesn't believe that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are Jaime's children, it gives him a good enough reason to kill his father's murderers. I really couldn't say if he would work out the Jaime/Cersei/Bran connection or not. What matter is that after the Battle of the Camps, Stannis' position improves tremendously, pushing him from 5000 men to 45,000 men ready to fight, making his assault on Storm's End less likely, and speeding up his naval based attack on KL before Cersei can increase the city watch and Tyrion can improve the city's defenses. All Robb has to do is exactly what he was already doing - keep Tywin busy whilst Stannis takes KL.

Since an attack from the water against the ill prepared KL almost certainly succeeds (Stannis' 5000 against KL's 2000, with Tyrion having only just arrived in the city) Cersei, Tyrion, Joffrey, Tommen and maybe even Myrcella all die, with Sansa also falling victim to Cersei's spite. Presumably Renly finally decides to attack KL himself with a massive army and Robb is still on the wrong side of Harrehal to help Stannis, but that doesn't really matter - the SB can kill Renly no matter where he is, which leaves a massive siege army outside Kl without a cause to fight for.

I'm genuinely unsure what Tywin would do in this scenario - he has nothing to offer the recently Kingless Tyrell army because Joffrey and Tommen are both dead. He's also hamstrung by the fact that Jaime is still Robb's prisoner and Sansa's death and Arya's disappearance means that there's nothing to stop reprisals upon Jaime should his father continue to misbehave against King Stannis.

Stannis is on the throne, there's no Great Western Allaince, the dornish do nothing and the Stormlords and Florents side with Stannis as in the OTL, except KL is already taken. The war of three kings is over.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

No. Robb isn't Ned. Ned had more honor than that.

You cant have it your way always. First you said Ned would have said no. I gave you the reasons why Robb couldnt say no.

Or just say that YOU will keep criticizing Robb for accepting his Vasals' offer to be KITN, no matter how many reasons I give you for why he coudnt deny the offer,and be done with the discussion.

You cant always keep changing goalposts to keep criticizing someone, just to feel smug on your intelligence.

[Lee-Sensei]

You cant have it your way always. First you said Ned would have said no. I gave you the reasons why Robb couldnt say no.

Or just say that YOU will keep criticizing Robb for accepting his Vasals' offer to be KITN, no matter how many reasons I give you for why he coudnt deny the offer,and be done with the discussion.

You cant always keep changing goalposts to keep criticizing someone, just to feel smug on your intelligence.

The reason I didn't respond was because we're not going to agree on this. Robb could have and should have refused to be crowned King. It alienates all potential allies (Except the Greyjoys). It was stupid. It was rash. And it cost him his life.