[Spoilers] The cheapening of character deaths

[Diziet]

what would have been better is the long lost king come back to claim his throne and upsetting the plans of someone whose plans to take the throne are subverted due to the new claim.

That's where ASOIAF is heading.

[Shryke]

"Pointless" as far as engaging my excitement? Yeah, I'm pretty okay with declaring that. Quentyn died and I basically just went "so why the hell was he ever introduced as a character, and why did I read all of that?" Yes, it may have a purpose plotwise. That doesn't automatically make it good, or even okay, writing, which, considering the thread title is directly about the cheapening of character deaths, is pretty on-topic.

I'm not really interested in Dance 2.0, since by the time we left Dany, she was literally shitting herself alone in the wastes. Maybe if Quentyn had died after Aegon and Dany had both declared themselves and moved on Westeros, you'd have a point. And, a far, far more interesting twist would have been Dorne, having just started off on years-long plan by Doran Martell to work with Daenerys (where realistically, Doran isn't going to have immediate news of Quentyn's success or failure), suddenly being confronted with the child of Elia Martell coming back from the dead and leading a famous mercenary band, and, unlike Dany, actually moving to claim his throne. Basically, like I said, the only interesting bit in AFfC was Doran Martell revealing himself. ADwD just shuts that all down in favor of another random kid. Now, that's all opinion, obviously, but I find the idea of killing characters just to be shocking somewhat tiresome. You can kill them off well, to great effect, while being shocking, but the point wasn't the shock value. And, honestly, dress it up how you will, but that's what Quentyn's death felt to me. Plus, I'm just tired of the dumb book-ending cliffhangers.

Plotwise he exists to drive a wedge between Dorne and Dany.

But more then that he serves to show Dany's continuing childishness and her having become lost in her attempts to control Meeren. His story is also about the problems and prices of Doran's choices. He's spent years bidding his time, playing the long game and ignoring that while you are doing that, circumstances are changing. And are often outside his control.

And Quentyn himself is the underdog hero. And rather then succeeding despite all odds, he fails as you'd expect in anything but a romantic fairy tale. And interestingly he refuses to accept that he isn't one. He's too afraid to go home and admit he's just a schlub and all the people who died did so for nothing.

Character deaths aren't just about shock, about plot, they are also about closing out or rounding out character/thematic arcs.

[natty bumppo]

On Brienne in AFFC: finding Sansa is obviously a fool's errand. GRRM has her travel around to show us what's going on outside King's Landing. The aftermath of the war and how the common folk cope. That's often the purpose of minor characters, BTW. Sometimes GRRM creates a character just to have a POV from which to show us certain event.

The real problem with ASOIAF is that it's too frigging big. Too much of everything. But it's way too late for GRRM to fix that now.

[Callan S.]

But I also want to see some sense of justice in terms of the character stories and arcs

Like what? Maybe they form some kind of fund for an organisation that goes on to do good things (or whatever the character thought was good things) after their death?

Otherwise it does just sound like you want them to win all the time? What else is there - live and do justice, or set up some organisation to do justice for after you're dead.

[Castel]

Yeah, I find using either Oberyn or Quentyn as problematic cases far from convincing.

Oberyn especially since people have outright admitted that they wouldn't complain about unrealistic or cheap deaths is Martin had just framed the scene differently and just had the Mountain beat him into the ground.So it seems to be anger at the plot turning to anger at the author.

And for that matter,I find the claim that OP would be fine with someone dying of dysentery but not battle when he's complaining about pointless deaths a bit silly. If Sam or Quentyn had died of dysentery we'd have a thread on that too.

Now I don't care. It is bound to happen. In Lies of Locke Lamora, everyone dies but Locke and Jean. But who gives a shit? The others characters were built to die.

How exactly where they built to die and why isn't Oberyn? Because he has a worthy cause?

Otherwise it does just sound like you want them to win all the time? What else is there - live and do justice, or set up some organisation to do justice for after you're dead.

I doubt he wants them to win all the time. Just when it matters.

The darkness and grittiness provides the backdrop and makes you feel as if actions have consequences, then the heroes pull out a win despite all the odds, making it all worth it and banishing said grittiness.If that doesn't happen soon enough well...the author fucking around. YMMV on where the lines are of course. Some people surely drew it at the deaths of Ned , then Robb and so on.

It's like salt; you have too little and people complain, you have too much, and people complain.

[Callan S.]

When doesn't winning matter??

I mean, I'm assuming the protagonist does just stop by his local pub for a darts game or some other event like that where he can lose. Then I'd take it winning doesn't matter, but how often does any genre do that?

But other than that when doesn't winning matter?

You end up at: 'things go wrong because others are bullheaded, but the protag blames him/herself enough to make it seem like they are to blame but you don't actually have to believe it - and they win all the time'

Especially the case when losing == character death.

Besides, it seems to be GRRM's counter message that goes against the just world genre - that when violence abounds, you don't get some person who just solves it all. People just die, here, there and everywhere.

To me the moral of the story seems to be that if you think you don't have to have a backup plan in case of your own death, you're wrong.

And yes, each death chips away at the 'just world' feeling.

Salt is coming... ;)

[Eponine]

What I've noticed having just done a reread of AFFC and ADWD is that it feels like there's a lot less dialogue than there was in the first three books and definitely less between known characters in a central location, and I think that hurt Quentyn and Arys a lot. Neither really had anything to say. I last read the first three books a few years ago, but can easily remember distinct interactions that Ned, Cat, Oberyn, Tywin, Lysa, Joffrey, etc. had with other characters. While I can recount Q & A's stories, nothing either of them said was really memorable, even though I just read it. Q whinges about how Dany needs to marry him. A agrees to help Arianne. That's pretty much it. It's obvious why there's a tradeoff - number of POVs, giving a good description of new places, having characters spread out and isolated, advancing the plot, so MANY characters now...

But on the flip side, I think that Jon, who always annoyed me and might yet, really benefited in ADWD. Having Stannis, Selyse, Melisandre, Val, news from beyond the wall and in the South... basically, my enjoyment of the story amounts to characters having other characters to talk with. I'd read a book that was just Varys, Littlefinger and Tyrion at counsel meetings.

IMO, Dany suffers the worst from this. Think of a conversation she's had with someone from Essos. Not Jorah or Barristan. Was it very interesting? Did the other party feel like a real person? Yeah. And the North benefits the most. For whatever reason, I instantly liked Alys Karstark even though she's in like one and half chapters. It feels to me like GRRM can give Northerners a personality in just one or two sentences, while struggling to put life into anyone from Essos.

[Vastet]

Frankly I think a series as long as ASOIAF is incapable of not cheapening character death to some degree. It's either that or do the 1990's Star Wars thing where noone important can ever die. GRRM could maybe go back and forth a bit between the two barriers, but to a certain degree I think he does that already. The real problem is the length of the series, and there's really nothing to be done about it. An epic tale of this type always ends up bigger than originally intended, at least in my experience.

[Arthmail]

Weeeeeee. My drunken rant threat reached five pages. I'm so proud. Well, drunk again and off to bed. Chowder.