Ser Peter Hughes Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 The Red Vipers death was the last in asoiaf that really worked for me but I'm not sure how such a long and character heavy series would avoid this. Does anyone have in mind a series that both killed off characters throughout and was successful in keeping those deaths meaningful?Someone mentioned what if the Red Viper had died of dysentery, and for a setting like Westeros, probably the most unrealistic thing is that pretty much no one dies of disease, but I have a hard time thinking that kind of death would enhance the books. It would drive home the true randomness of death and ability of the author to fuck with you at any time in any way, but I don't really see these as literary virtues in a story structures like this is.Seriously though, I'd finished BSC this year and wasn't sure if I wanted to read the Heroes and now I'm not going to anytime soon. I mean I'm not saying the spoiler put me off forever bc obviously I'll forget it eventually, but this is moving the book down the pile for me.Don't let it put you off The Heroes- Whirrun isn't exactly a main character in it. Almost everything that happens happens for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Spocky dog,Spoilers dude. How did you get ahold of Cibola Burn so early? ARC copy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Hey Scot, Didn't think my post was spoilerific, but I've now tagged it as such... Not reading an ARC, it was released in the UK on the 5th of June. I believe you should also be able to buy it now, maybe not from Amazon through... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Spocky,We've preordered the American edition. I'm waiting for it to arive sometime in July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 See, if you had an e-reader, you could be reading it. RIGHT NOW! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthmail Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 So many tears for spoilers. My apologies, I guess, to those that feel slighted. I personally think that if you haven't read a book a year after its release your going to get spoilered if you go on the internet. But that's just me. Also, I started this all when I was drunk and then wandered away to do other things. It's like dropping a hand grenade in a toilet. But honestly, Whirrun was a minor character, so I guess I'm not really sorry. (yea, I'm an asshole) Some good points all around. Solo, I know what you are saying. I'm just very weary after Bakker, I suppose. I don't mind characters having plot armour if it serves a purpose, but the endless string of deaths in GRRM's books have left me feeling cold. I recognize that it was war and yadda, yadda, but there is still a basic narrative investment on the part of the reader. When I feel I am being...manipulated...I start to get angry. And usually I don't pay attention to such things at all, I give the author the benefit of the doubt and expect that they are doing what they are doing for a reason. But then when the reader turns around and we are introduced to yet another story line or another POV I sort of give up. And there are consequences to each of these deaths...but mostly because GRRM wrote them that way. That there are consequences by no means cheapens the situation in some instances, and it by no means leaves me feeling any less blah about the entire fucking affair. But I can't properly articulate how much fucking rage I had after watching the show death of the Viper. I never react like that, so I'm not sure what it was. Perhaps its some real world health issues from my father bleeding into everything else. I don't know. Ultimately, Whirrun's death was not really the grand deconstruction that others saw. There were other elements of each of Joe's stories that better suited that sort of pursuit. Gorst, actually, is a phenomenal deconstruction of the killing machine bad ass trope. He's honestly one of my favorite characters because of that. As a reader my opinion ultimately isn't worth shit beyond internet raging, but I felt there were other paths for Joe to go down. And yea, Malazan is the worst for that. And GRRM is working on it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What purpose did Quentyn Martell's death serve? It illustrated the consequences of trying to tame a dragon in the presence of multiple untamed dragons. :) More seriously, I agree that overuse of the death of protagonists in these very long series can be detrimental to the overall quality. It definitely has a powerful short-term impact... but then you realize that there are still thousands of pages left to read and half the character cast has been replaced by people you don't really care about. IMHO, this plot device works better in plays and short stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Thursday Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 There is a flip-side to all this. I'm currently reading Cibola Burn, book four of The Expanse. One of my few criticisms of this series is that, despite Jim Holden placing his crew in ever increasing situations of extreme jeopardy, none of them have actually died. Yeah, new characters are created for every book, and, yeah, some of them die. But it seems that the crew of the Rocinante can keep on getting into these extremely deadly situations where survival seems, if not impossible, extremely fucking unlikely. Yet their plot armour is so thick you're never really worried about them. Not saying I want any of these guys to die, but it kinda stretches credulity. Having said that, I'm about two-thirds of the way through the book, and the situation is pretty perilous for everyone concerned. So you never know. I agree with this sentiment - the crew of the Rocinante all seem a little too impervious for my liking. Cibola Burn spoiler (don't read unless you've finished it): To make things worse than mere improbability in the face of danger, Amos gets a fake-out death at the end of this one that really annoyed me. Him staying dead would have been a better ending, bringing the price of the whole mess home to Holden. That he was magically resurrected was the only flaw in what was otherwise a very enjoyable book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Woodpecker of West Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 More seriously, I agree that overuse of the death of protagonists in these very long series can be detrimental to the overall quality. It definitely has a powerful short-term impact... but then you realize that there are still thousands of pages left to read and half the character cast has been replaced by people you don't really care about. IMHO, this plot device works better in plays and short stories. Well maybe I would agree, but death of Kevan was probably one that strike me the most, so I still believe that George can make this new characters relevant, and their deaths important. Pity he probably won't kill Tyrion, I'm tired of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disturber of Peace Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 What purpose did Quentyn Martell's death serve?Read Arianne tWoW chapter.Even without that knowledge it is still not fair to speak as if the series is done and the death served no plot purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Peter Hughes Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Read Arianne tWoW chapter.Even without that knowledge it is still not fair to speak as if the series is done and the death served no plot purpose.It shows that Dornishmen aren't completely oblivious to heat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince of Newcastle Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 It releases Danys captive dragons. It ends the possible alliance between Dorne and Dany. It makes Aegon seem a viable option for Dorne. It gives the book a reason for it's title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 It illustrated the consequences of trying to tame a dragon in the presence of multiple untamed dragons. :) More seriously, I agree that overuse of the death of protagonists in these very long series can be detrimental to the overall quality. It definitely has a powerful short-term impact... but then you realize that there are still thousands of pages left to read and half the character cast has been replaced by people you don't really care about. IMHO, this plot device works better in plays and short stories. So far, at least, GRRM has either killed characters I didn't care about or whose deaths were plot-driven and plot-driving; or who would have most likely died unnatural deaths due to their lifestyles/situations/personalities - at least most of the time. I must admit to not caring about Quentyn Martell or the Windblown, or Varamyr Sixskins, or Arys Oakheart. I do think that GRRM may have dropped the ball if Jon Snow is definitely dead and stays that way for at least a few days before returning; just because we've seen too much of post-mortem returns in wights, Rh'lorr-returned, and now, probably Robert Strong; it's becoming old hat. Oberyn Martell; much as I love the character, was probably not fated to die in bed of old age anyway; he was such a fiery, passionate man that he might almost inevitably insult or cuckold the wrong person and get himself killed, or find himself in a fight he could not win. Joffrey had hundreds of people despising him, it was likely that someone would be smart and bold enough to kill him. Robert Baratheon was doomed, the only question was when; there's no way that Cersei would have made Joffrey wait to rule until he was 25 or 30 and Robert died a natural death. Poor Robb was walking a very dangerous line; and his teenaged idiocy with Jeyne Westerling hurried his fall. Lysa became inconvenient to Littlefinger just a few years earlier than she would have had she not tried to murder Sansa. I wonder, though, if GRRM killed off Joffrey and Tywin too early. Ramsay is, in my opinion, too over-the-top to replace either (Joffrey would probably have become more like him as he grew; but it might have taken several years) of those great villains; and compared to Tywin, Victarion and Euron are louts. I can't keep track of who's poisoning who in Slaver's Bay and I don't really care. I do like Aegon, fake or real, and his merrie band; and wonder what they'll end up achieving, and hope they're not killed off too soon. GRRM already killed two out of my three favorite characters (Ned and Oberyn), so there's not much more he can do via the character-death-moves that would shock me (well, I'd be shocked if he ended up killing Tyrion and Arya). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manishramesh Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Has the Mareenese knot been untangled? the plot still seems difficult to me.after the death of Quintin I mean. I thought the Dornish were introduced to give Danny an out to abandon Mareen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It releases Danys captive dragons.It ends the possible alliance between Dorne and Dany.It makes Aegon seem a viable option for Dorne.It gives the book a reason for it's title.And also basically made the only interesting bit of AFfC moot. Like, the only, only good scene in AFfC as far as I was concerned was Doran Martell saying "fire and blood." Oops, sorry, that actually didn't pan out anywhere! It'd be like if he actually killed Brienne after we followed her around doing fuck-all for an entire book. Oh hey, have a dramatic change in the political situ-oh wait, never mind, we're back to exactly where we were, only I've had you read two books to get there. Aren't you surprised? I was surprised. edit: Whirrun, whatever, I didn't particularly care either way. The fact that he hadn't died earlier kinda irked me because, as mentioned, its a dude who goes into pitched battles without clothes on. He's going to catch a stray shot sometime. His death was fine, and I didn't think it was cheap at all. Neither was Oberyn's. He effectively introduces the entire Dornish situation. When he dies, sure, you're thinking about Tyrion's fate. You're also thinking that, oh shit, there's this whole group of badass fighters who are now kind of pissed at the Lannisters. (He also brings the Dornish hatred of the Lannisters re: Elia's murder back to the forefront, which further adds to this). Its not just a change to Tyrion's fate, but a pretty significant, immediate change to the political, by broadening and complicating that arena. Quentyn's just basically does the opposite and shuts off a plot branch. To me it felt like GRRM had decided his plot had grown too complex and he wanted to prune off a branch and be ~shocking~ at the same time. It didn't work for me. Oberyn sets up the entire Dornish theatre. Quentyn does nothing so grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Denton Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Has the Mareenese knot been untangled? the plot still seems difficult to me.after the death of Quintin I mean. I thought the Dornish were introduced to give Danny an out to abandon Mareen. Well GRRM subverted your expectations, isn't that would good writers do :smile: Dornish prince flambe's story wasn't nearly as pointless as Brienne's entire plot arc in AFFC. The readers know where Sansa and Arya went. The problem is, Brienne doesn't ( I think she does hint at going go the Vale at one point, briefly, but theres never any serious effort to get there, it seems).. Thus we know her quest is pretty much doomed to fail from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 The death of Quentyn sets up Dance 2.0 since Dorne will likely side w/ Aegon and put a wedge between Aegon and Dany. What I find odd is that people can declare deaths 'pointless' when the story is only 3/4 of the way done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theriveryeti Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 But Ran thinks I'm screaming in the dark. So perhaps I am. ---------------------------------------------- Certainly something about ASOIAF appeals to you, as you keep reading it and posting about it, right? Do you think you might just be burned out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 The death of Quentyn sets up Dance 2.0 since Dorne will likely side w/ Aegon and put a wedge between Aegon and Dany. What I find odd is that people can declare deaths 'pointless' when the story is only 3/4 of the way done. "Pointless" as far as engaging my excitement? Yeah, I'm pretty okay with declaring that. Quentyn died and I basically just went "so why the hell was he ever introduced as a character, and why did I read all of that?" Yes, it may have a purpose plotwise. That doesn't automatically make it good, or even okay, writing, which, considering the thread title is directly about the cheapening of character deaths, is pretty on-topic. I'm not really interested in Dance 2.0, since by the time we left Dany, she was literally shitting herself alone in the wastes. Maybe if Quentyn had died after Aegon and Dany had both declared themselves and moved on Westeros, you'd have a point. And, a far, far more interesting twist would have been Dorne, having just started off on years-long plan by Doran Martell to work with Daenerys (where realistically, Doran isn't going to have immediate news of Quentyn's success or failure), suddenly being confronted with the child of Elia Martell coming back from the dead and leading a famous mercenary band, and, unlike Dany, actually moving to claim his throne. Basically, like I said, the only interesting bit in AFfC was Doran Martell revealing himself. ADwD just shuts that all down in favor of another random kid. Now, that's all opinion, obviously, but I find the idea of killing characters just to be shocking somewhat tiresome. You can kill them off well, to great effect, while being shocking, but the point wasn't the shock value. And, honestly, dress it up how you will, but that's what Quentyn's death felt to me. Plus, I'm just tired of the dumb book-ending cliffhangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Ok, so killing off characters you don't expect to get killed off to move the plot in a certain direction is 'bad writing'; but what would have been better is the long lost king come back to claim his throne and upsetting the plans of someone whose plans to take the throne are subverted due to the new claim. Yeah... it's really too bad there's no fantasy writers writing about kings thought long dead coming back to claim their throne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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