Connecting the 3 Dragon Heads - Examining Unique Similarities

[Hippocras]

Why hate Victarion? I have less affection for Euron then him. I wouldn't mind it a lot, only the fact that (up to now) he has had no role in the series.

Well he's really a very stupid man, first of all. Him as a leader of anything is a scary proposition. Then there is the whole murdering his wife just because his sadistic brother SAID she slept with him and willingly, none of which was ever even confirmed and would not justify being murdered regardless.

Also the keeping of sex slaves, burning alive of completely innocent girls because they were pretty....

Asshole. He should have just supported Asha's claim. He knew it was what Balon wanted.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Well he's really a very stupid man, first of all. Him as a leader of anything is a scary proposition. Then there is the whole murdering his wife just because his sadistic brother SAID she slept with him and willingly, none of which was ever even confirmed and would not justify being murdered regardless.

Also the keeping of sex slaves, burning alive of completely innocent girls because they were pretty....

Asshole. He should have just supported Asha's claim. He knew it was what Balon wanted.

i thought it was clearly given in the books that she did sleep with Euron ....

[Attitude]

Well he's really a very stupid man, first of all. Him as a leader of anything is a scary proposition. Then there is the whole murdering his wife just because his sadistic brother SAID she slept with him and willingly, none of which was ever even confirmed and would not justify being murdered regardless.

Also the keeping of sex slaves, burning alive of completely innocent girls because they were pretty....

Asshole. He should have just supported Asha's claim. He knew it was what Balon wanted.

Didn't Euron actually impregnated his wife? So it was kinda clear that he did do it? Anyway, they are ironborn. They are angry, scary, but not very bright. Euron is the bright one but feels much more like an asshole to me.

'The keeping of sex slaves' is hardly the worst thing I saw in asoiaf. And I doubt that Asha would've won if Vicatrion would've supported her. Anyway, the stuborn ironborn did what was expected.

[Hippocras]

i thought it was clearly given in the books that she did sleep with Euron ....

Even if it was it is not a reason to beat her to death, and there is no confirmation she did so willingly. Euron is a confirmed rapist.

[Hippocras]

Also, Vic hasn't even considered to possibility that Dany should have any say in marrying him. He thinks he can just take her as if she is some kind of goat.

[Attitude]

Even if it was it is not a reason to beat her to death, and there is no confirmation she did so willingly. Euron is a confirmed rapist.

You forget the 'honor' that the ironborn have. If you brother had sex with your wife, rape or not, you have to act in some way, else you will look weak. This was his reaction.

And killing a women because she got raped isn't that weird. It happens in middle east country's a lot.

Also, Vic hasn't even considered to possibility that Dany should have any say in marrying him. He thinks he can just take her as if she is some kind of goat.

As I said, he isn't very smart.

[Hippocras]

You forget the 'honor' that the ironborn have. If you brother had sex with your wife, rape or not, you have to act in some way, else you will look weak. This was his reaction.

And killing a women because she got raped isn't that weird. It happens in middle east country's a lot.

As I said, he isn't very smart.

Yeah, but point is none of that is endearing, it is in fact very good reason for me to hate him and cringe in fear at the idea of him being a dragon head. I can't imagine much that would be worse.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Even if it was it is not a reason to beat her to death, and there is no confirmation she did so willingly. Euron is a confirmed rapist.

yes agreeing on the part that she should not have died the way that she died and if Vic should have shown the same hate towards Euron also and should have killed him no matter what Balon told him and when Euron came back he did what he told and only after long time he got the idea to marry Danny for himself

Also, Vic hasn't even considered to possibility that Dany should have any say in marrying him. He thinks he can just take her as if she is some kind of goat.

now you mention this ....it seems stupid how some people here also go on with this thing like he can make her marry him...

[Attitude]

now you mention this ....it seems stupid how some people here also go on with this thing like he can make her marry him...

I see a good option. Dany needs ships (and wouldn't mind an extra army) if she wants to go to westeros.

[Hippocras]

I see a good option. Dany needs ships (and wouldn't mind an extra army) if she wants to go to westeros.

Well it is just as legit for Dany to kill Vic and TAKE his ships. She is not gonna marry him because he wants to force her to.

[jon rhaegar stark]

I see a good option. Dany needs ships (and wouldn't mind an extra army) if she wants to go to westeros.

yes she needs a ships but if you look at the position in meereen she is already winning the war and will have fleet of her own

he may be helpful in Danny getting to westeros but think about this he has what some 70 or 80 ships how many can she bring with her in that when those ships already as Iron Born

and the fact he can help her does not make him superior in this situation ....it will always be the case of Danny who will decide what she will do with him and not the other way around....

[Attitude]

Well it is just as legit for Dany to kill Vic and TAKE his ships. She is not gonna marry him because he wants to force her to.

He isn't alone and I assume the people around him wil council him. If he tries to force her, it will go wrong. Taking the ships is risky. If Victarion thinks he's about to lose he can sink his own ships leaving Dany with nothing.

Besides, if Victarion helps Barristan with defending Mereen, she will be grateful.

yes she needs a ships but if you look at the position in meereen she is already winning the war and will have fleet of her own

he may be helpful in Danny getting to westeros but think about this he has what some 70 or 80 ships how many can she bring with her in that when those ships already as Iron Born

and the fact he can help her does not make him superior in this situation ....it will always be the case of Danny who will decide what she will do with him and not the other way around....

Of course it will, but that doesn't mean it wont happen.

[Maia]

I think the reason people object to Jon's body being "dead" is because it it pretty clear that he cannot be "UnJon" when he is resurrected because the "real" Jon has to complete the rest of his mission.

I am not sure why you think that unJon would be unable to continue with his mission as a sentient, self-directed fire unPerson, along the lines of Beric after his first death, or Melisandre. Beric after half-a-dozen more deaths or unCat are a different matter entirely.

I don't think it has anything to do with "loving" Jon too much.

I think that it does. His fans want Jon to become king and be personally happy, have a family, etc. None of this would be possible if he becomes an unPerson, but there is zero reason why he would be unable to complete his mission ;). So, resistance of the readers towards this concept really isn't about Jon's ability to do his bit for protection of the realms of men.

Personally, I am unsure about Jon's body really dying - IMHO, it is likely that Melisandre will whip out "only death can pay for life" magic and do what Mirri did for Drogo... only properly, so that Jon's body is healed, but he also retains his full mental capacity. This will also bring his inner dragon to the surface, as Ghost would be the most logical sacrifice.

But what I absolutely don't see is a cheat where Jon's body really dies, but he comes back wholly alive at some later point, because he is Jesus :).

BTW, weren't the wights of Other and Jafer also put in the storage rooms under the Wall?

Hoster the Hostage:

In the same vein I can't help but notice that legend of tempering of Azor Ahai's sword maps in interesting ways on Dany, Jon and Tyrion trio in that:

Dany has to kill a beloved spouse - Nissa Nissa analogue.

Tyrion kills a "lion" in Tywin and possibly has to kill a "lion" identity in himself.

Jon's connection with water is more speculative, but there was that cave scene with Ygritte and his nightmare about her bathing and dissolving in the hot springs of Winterfell, so it can be tentatively mapped to his rejection of Ygritte.

And all of this was needed to free people in question for their possible roles as heads of the dragon.

Pobeb:

IMHO, the theory that Dany is Bonifer's bastard is ridiculous and is mainly aimed at enhancing Jon's speshul status as the only possible contender for being the Promised Prince. Since said prince was supposed to come from the offspring of Aerys and Rhaella both. Needless to say, I completely disagree with it, not to mention that logistics of it would be beyond implausible. Aerys was suspicious of Rhaella in his later years, after all, and watched her closely.

And anyway, IMHO "from the line of Aerys and Rhaella" was about having sufficient Targaryen blood to hatch the dragons and has been already fulfilled.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Who ever said that the three heads have to have 'as much as similarity as possible?' Everyone is assuming that the criteria are 'having killed your mother in childbirth, lost a love, etc.' Why is this assumed a requirement ?

I think you are reasoning in the wrong direction. It is not that there is a stated requirement that the three heads have as much similarity as possible. It is the other way around. When you look at the clues GRRM gives and see that he wrote three characters to have so many things in common it raises the question of WHY? It might just be an unintended coincidence. But with GRRM that seems unlikely. So the reader needs to ponder the reason why these similarities in these three characters would be so extensive. An attentive reader would then think--well where in the series is the number 3 important--I got it--the three heads of the dragon. So when you already have a strong suspicion for other reasons that Jon and Dany are two heads of the dragon. And then you see Jon and Dany have an amazing amount of similarities not just to each other, but to this third major character--Tyrion, logic suggest that these three characters--arguably the 3 major characters of the entire series--are the three heads of the dragon.

The important point is never to reason backwards. Don't form a conclusion without any real clues and then look for the clues to support it (which is what would be happening if you went looking for 3 characters with as many similarities as possible to find the 3 heads). Instead, look at all possible clues found, and then try to figure out what they might mean. It is essentially a puzzle that GRRM has pieced together, and we have to decipher the clues. Here, the clues are that J,D & T are connected in some way--and the most logical way in which they are connected is that they are the 3 heads of the dragon (which perhaps gives more credence to A+J=T).

[Game Of Thrones]

Any theory based on A+J=T, I will hate with a thousand hates and one.

That said, nice work to the OP.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am not sure why you think that unJon would be unable to continue with his mission as a sentient, self-directed fire unPerson, along the lines of Beric after his first death, or Melisandre. Beric after half-a-dozen more deaths or unCat are a different matter entirely.

I think that it does. His fans want Jon to become king and be personally happy, have a family, etc. None of this would be possible if he becomes an unPerson, but there is zero reason why he would be unable to complete his mission ;). So, resistance of the readers towards this concept really isn't about Jon's ability to do his bit for protection of the realms of men.

OK, let me be more specific in what I meant about the UnJon situation. I don't believe that an UnPerson can really be a Prince--because an UnPerson is "dead" in some sense. I don't believe that an UnPerson feels emotions the same way or interacts with the world the same way as a "regular" person. When Beric or Cat are resurrected, they come back in some form, but they are never quite the same person as they were before they "died". So when I say that Jon could not complete his mission, I don't mean that he could not fight against the Others. I mean that he cannot be one of the 3 heads of the dragon--he cannot be The Prince That Was Promised, etc.--if he is UnJon. The literary requirements of Jon being the real Jon again are quite strong. To fulfill the prophesies, he must be the original Jon.

So when I say the need for Jon to come back as "Jon" and not "UnJon" is not based on a "love" for Jon, this is what I mean. I mean that GRRM has made it clear that an UnPerson is not really the same person. Jon needs to come back as the same person in order to be able to play the role that has been laid out for him given the prophesies and the other "unfinished business" he has. For example, GRRM has said that Jon would find out the truth of his parentage. It is not the same if only UnJon finds this out--that is not really Jon finding out--that is UnJon finding out. So the structure of Jon's entire story arc requires that the "real" Jon come back. I certainly am not a romantic. I believe Jon needs to come back as the real Jon for these literary-based reasons--not some romantic notion of being so attached to Jon that the reader needs him to come back whole.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Any theory based on A+J=T, I will hate with a thousand hates and one.

That said, nice work to the OP.

I understand that many people on these boards are quite opposed to A+J=T, and I understand why they feel how they feel (a combination of too many secret Targs and the belief that the Tywin/Tyrion relationship would be tarnished). But GRRM is not writing this series to make everyone happy--that task is impossible. If you want to argue for where the clues actually lead to--rather than where you want the clues to lead--you need to consider plot developments that you would dislike. The clues in favor of A+J=T are not determinitive, but they are not inconsequential either. Nothing in the series to date makes it impossible for Tryion to be a Targ bastard, so at this point the theory cannot be definitively disproven. Of course, that fact does not make the theory correct, it just means it has to be considered under the circumstances. Based on what we know regarding the prophesies, Tyrion is the best candidate for the 3rd head of the dragon. That conclusion alone is a strong argument in favor of A+J=T. But if the theory is correct, GRRM is going to give out the clues very slowly and sparingly, so we may not know for sure until close to the end of the entire series. Just keep you mind open to all possibilities.

[Maia]

I don't believe that an UnPerson can really be a Prince--because an UnPerson is "dead" in some sense.

Well, I really don't see why we can't have an undead Prince, and, of course, it very well can be that Jon is not _the_ Prince or that the Promised Prince is not one person, but a collection of individuals who all need to do certain stuff for humanity to survive.

I don't believe that an UnPerson feels emotions the same way or interacts with the world the same way as a "regular" person.

We have an unPerson's PoV. Melisandre in ADwD, remember? And it is close enough to that of a regular human, even displaying hitherto unsuspected compassion, etc.

Beric after half-a-dozen deaths, and unCat, who had been dead for days before being brought back, are completely different cases, as I have already pointed out.

So, yea, judging by Melisandre, unJon would be real enough and could fulfill the literary requirements you mention. After all, memories of being sold into slavery still affect Melisandre.

Again, I don't believe that Jon will become an unPerson ( though it would be an interesting and unexpected development), but neither do I believe that it would fit the story for his body to be really dead and then come back to life completely.

Re: cold - both Bran and Dany felt it during their near-death dreams and successfully fled from it. IMHO, it will be the same with Jon - he is mortally wounded, but not dead and will be healed.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, I really don't see why we can't have an undead Prince, and, of course, it very well can be that Jon is not _the_ Prince or that the Promised Prince is not one person, but a collection of individuals who all need to do certain stuff for humanity to survive.

We have an unPerson's PoV. Melisandre in ADwD, remember? And it is close enough to that of a regular human, even displaying hitherto unsuspected compassion, etc.

Beric after half-a-dozen deaths, and unCat, who had been dead for days before being brought back, are completely different cases, as I have already pointed out.

So, yea, judging by Melisandre, unJon would be real enough and could fulfill the literary requirements you mention. After all, memories of being sold into slavery still affect Melisandre.

Again, I don't believe that Jon will become an unPerson ( though it would be an interesting and unexpected development), but neither do I believe that it would fit the story for his body to be really dead and then come back to life completely.

Re: cold - both Bran and Dany felt it during their near-death dreams and successfully fled from it. IMHO, it will be the same with Jon - he is mortally wounded, but not dead and will be healed.

I am not sure whether his body "dies" or he remains in a coma--but I agree he does not come back as UnJon. The point is that I thought it was stated, maybe by Beric, that every time he comes back, he is less of himself--but even the first time, he was still a little less of himself. That is what I am arguing. Jon cannot come back as less of himself (even slightly less) and still fulfill the roles that I believe he will fulfill.

[Talking Hodor]

It seems reasonable but i will hate it so much if it turns out Tyrion isn't really Tywin's son.

Of course he's his son; go ask his aunt.